>>the western Manirians including the Mraloti were subject to the >>Lifebringer (i.e. theist) methods during the Dawn Age. The >>Ramali are mentioned as one of the Entruli tribes.
> But the Mraloti aren't in Maniria at this time. According to the
> Broken Council Map (p12),
The source I missed when scanning the text. Oh well...
> they live beyond the Pralori and east of
> the Basmoli (in what is now modern Daran).
Which means they roam a territory with its rough center there. A certain niche sharing occurs in most hsunchen territories, and boars have different needs from deer.
> Only after the Chaos
> War and some unknown time before the Sinking of Slontos did they
> move to Ramalia.
Where did you find this temporal sequence?
>>The hinterland Wenelians and the Mraloti both were subject to Pralori >>ravages and received First Council aid and influences.
> Not the Mraloti. According to BCG p19,
RuneQuest-Con 2 edition, in case anybody else tried to find the passage in Glorantha-Con 4 edition.
> they (both Pralori and Mraloti) were allied with the Vustrians
Probably against the Enerali.
> and nothing is said about either turning up to the Council
> after Zebrawood.
The council is distant. The Praxian presence there feels much like a freeform artifact. The absence of most Hsunchen (except the reptiles) is another - were no Telmori involved?
>>Somehow I am astonished that the idea of a similarity between Orlanth >>the Boar and Mralot due to the conversion efforts of the Lifebringer >>missionaries should cause so much headache.
> Because the idea is wrong. The Wenelians worshipped Orlanth the
> Boar _long_ before the Dawn and had no need of missionaries to
> tell them about Orlanth.
By which name did they worship their storm boar?
Several Vingkotling groups managed to lose hold on Orlanth. A few may have survived nevertheless.
> What the missionaries did impart was the
> "word of safety and light" (Uz Lore p12) or "the Doctrine of Peace
> and Co-operation of the Council" (BCG p4).
"Wherever the Lightbringer agents went, these agents of civilization woke the gods and spirits of a region with their worship and magic." (CoT p.16, also available from the website)
Elsewhere the superiority of the (quite diverse) lightbringer agents' magics over the shreds of magic retained by the other survivors is mentioned (e.g. for Prax or Talastar).
> But postulating theist Mraloti at any time is an error. The
> Mraloti are and have always been animists.
What happened to those remaining in Safelster, e.g. during the Dark Empire?
>>I never said there were no Mraloti Hsunchen in Maniria.
> You did state that neither Shannon's article on the Kingdom of
> Night nor the Broken Council Guidebook (erroneously as it
> turns out) mentions Mraloti
in Dawn Age Maniria. Which turns out to be the case.
> but just mentions the Entruli of whom the Ramalians are a part.
And now all non-ruling Ramalians are treated as Mraloti in the descriptions. No chance that some of them are/have been Ramali?
> What you intended to imply was unclear but a denial of the
> existence of Mraloti was a plausible construction.
A wrong construction.
>>How is the rivalry between Boar Orlanth and the Mraloti deity where >>Mraloti and Wenelian Orlanthi have contact?
> Do they have contact? The Mraloti now live in Ramalia which is
> isolated from the rest of Wenelian-infested Maniria by the New
> Fens. What has become of the original Ramalians is a good question
> but there are no significant populations of Orlanthi in Ramalia
> according to the Player's Book Genertela.
The original Ramali (and other Entruli) became the rural population of Slontos. Not all of Slontos has drowned.
IMO Slontos always had one foot in the theist camp and one foot in the Malkioni camp. The Rightness Crusaders made the Malkioni abandon whatever Stygian ways they may have had. I don't think they converted or expelled the pagan serfs. (Ok, some may have ended up in Umathela.)
>>Much as Peter is uncomfortable in having un-boarish chiefs or >>lawspeakers among the Wenelians,
> I don't see how Joerg infers this.
Another communication problem.
Peter:
: The second point is that I do not believe the Wenelian Orlanth : (What Greymane's clan does is something I'll ignore for now) : is merely a boar subcult as this means that a King or a lawspeaker : would not worship Orlanth the Boar, which I feel is wrong.
"which I feel is wrong" does infer some discomfort.
I still think that the actual boar shape magics (boar hide, boarserk rage, ripping tusk blow) could be the subject of a subcult rather than the main affinities. Much like Vanganth has Flying.
We agree that there likely is a deeper boar perspective in the Wenelian perception of Orlanth. Or do I infer this mistakenly as well?
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