> Why would the Bemuri bother fooling around with Orlanth when Urox is
> even a better fit to those bullish traits?
Because Urox is a bad role model for an entire society. These peoples are called Orlanthi because Orlanth embodies the society's mores.
>>>It's far more probable that their worship of >>>Bemur was transferred to Urox/Storm Bull rather than >>>Orlanth.
>>IMO it is important such for a conversion to retain significant >>parts of the initiatory routine to the main deity.
> But since they have converted from animism to theism, no such
> retention is possible.
Circular argumentation. There's nothing to stop them from keeping what is good about their former ways.
> In any case, all that's been said
> about the East Wilds Orlanthi is that they are aware of their
> hsunchen roots, not that they all feverently maintain their
> old hsunchen identities.
A heavy dose of "all".
"All" I want is a difference between the East Wilds Orlanth worship from other Orlanthi based on their hsunchen history. It would be the logical criterion for their difference, no?
If that's against some immutable dogma - that's the Orlanthi way.
If it means that they retain some cases of misapplied worship - Greg said that the "pure" forms are only one way of formulating the rules standard, and that it would have been as valid for everyone to start with the price of misapplied worship and then give special compensation for pure forms rather than penalize misapplications, and that this would have been psychologically easier to accept.
> And what of the Vustrians among them?
They are the disorganized shepherds of Vustria who hate the council-descended Orlanthi who stole their better lands.
Vustria appears to be reckoned as part of Vesmonstran, or at least not typical of the East Wilds.
>>Is Bemur(ox) a cattle deity or a cattle spirit, regardless what his >>followers did during the Greater Darkness?
> He is a cattle spirit as follows from him being a Hsunchen
> spirit.
That's the dogma based on what his followers did during the Darkness and in the early Dawn Age.
>>I'm trying to investigate what happened when the Lifebringer >>missionaries established the methods of sacrifice among the >>peoples of the Barbarian Belt.
> They didn't. They went among Orlanthi peoples, most of whom
> have maintained their Orlanthi ways since the Vingkotling
> Age and taught them the secrets of the I Fought We Won and
> the like.
They went to Prax, they went into the great western forest (Maniria, Ralios, southern Fronela). They even went into Peloria. They contacted Aldryami forests, troll settlements, Vingkotlings and non-Vingkotling humans alike.
> They were not successful in converting the
> Hsunchen for this reason, simply because the latter had no
> need of council secrets.
East Ralian hsunchen as well as Enerali accepted the conversion. Not all of them.
>>During the >>Godtime, sacrifice was different, or Hantrafal's discovery during the >>Darkness and/or Silver Age would have been trivial.
> Hantrafal lived in the Vingkotling Age (TR p61).
He made his discoveries during the late Vingkotling Age when many gods were unavailable. And he made these discoveries among the Vingkotlings, not among the Durevings or other groups.
> What you
> are probably thinking of is Heort's discovery that the
> gods were returning to life and sacrifices were once again
> potent. I do not believe that sacrifices were different
> before and after considering that the Pelandan sacrifices
> showed no change (cf Entekosiad).
The Pelandan combination of adorations and sacrifices are different from the Orlanthi sacrifices. The fact that practically the entire pantheon had a close brush with death or worse will have changed the accessibility.
>>I'm rather convinced that whatever the Lifebringer missionaries >>found when they came [to Ralios and Maniria], a lot of the practices >>were misapplied.
> I don't think so.
I'm not surprised...
> If the practices were misapplied, then their
> worshippers would have never survived the Great Darkness.
Misapplied worship works. It works better than correct worship to dead and unresponsive deities.
>>IMO several Dureving peoples survived by using Hsunchen methods, >>retaining only a shred of their Orlanthi ways.
> I strongly doubt it. Dureving ways and Hsunchenism are
> incompatible. Dureving is a god of farming while Hsunchen have
> a loathing of agriculture (an invention of the trickster).
Vingkotling ways include Dureving ways, yet a lot of Vingkotling groups were reduced to hunting and gathering during the Darkness. When agriculture failed to feed the people, they looked for other solutions.
>>The surprising ease with which some of the Ralians were converted to >>Lifebringer Ways indicates to me that there were some hidden common >>roots, be they theist entities included in animist practices, or vice >>versa.
> I really don't see anything that indicates the Ralians converting
> with ease. Several battles are fought there in the first age
> (Kvitti, Zebrawood etc) which at least implies the traditions
> being strongly held.
There are battles fought between converted Vustri and the council, too. The battles are fought about territory.
> Furthermore, there's no Orlanthi presence
> there in earlier ages, so why would there be common practices?
If the Jaranings lived atop Arrowmound, the Skyreach range won't have been an obstacle for Vingkotlings and other Orlanthi to cross into East Ralios.
Where did the refugees from various threats of the Darkness go? Several Starlight tribes of the Vingkotlings are lost.
>>The Sylilans worshipped Odayla as their cultural deity when the >>Lifebringers appeared. The Lifebringers discovered or proved that >>core secrets of their Odayla worship and of their own Orlanth were >>identical.
> They didn't have to discover or prove anything.
We disagree.
> They knew that
> who the Odaylans were and their gods relationship to Orlanth (and
> vice-versa). They only had to re-establish contact and teach
> them some magic secrets that they learned (I fought We Won).
They did bring the news of the Unity Battle and how to sacrifice efficiently.
Isn't I Fought We Won what sets the Heortlings apart from the other Orlanthi?
> This more than anything explains why the Wenelians were so receptive
> to Lifebringer ways and why the Pralori, the Mraloti and the
> Zebra remained unconverted.
The East Ralians apparently converted with less trouble - also because nobody sent settlers their way. Converted Vustri and unconverted Zebras had a common cause in defending their lands, as had the Karian Kivitti before them, but lacked the military strength.
The East Ralians - especially the Bemuri - happen to live closer to the former Vingkotling and Dureving lands, too.
Joerg
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