Peter Metcalfe:
>So Orlanth and Elmal are Gods of Life because they have ferility
>connections? You see why I am not convinced of your chain of
>logic that because Shargash is the Father of Alkoth, he has
>fertility connections and so is worshipped as a God of Life?
I think, for the people of Alkoth, Shargash is the One Who Gives Life and Takes It Away. They live because He wills it, and they die when He commands. He's the ultimate expression of the Father who says "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it." Outside of Alkoth, Shargash shows only his Red Face.
>>it's just part of what they are -- as great gods,
>
>Elmal is a great god?
Not according to the old definition. He is according to the Hero Wars definition (HW, p.175). Of course, the example immediately following the definition says that there are two great gods for the Orlanthi, Orlanth and Ernalda, which seems to leave Elmal out in the cold. Either HW overstated the case or Elmal is not great. Given that there are Elmali clans, I'd argue for the former, but I like Elmal. (I like Heler even more (Go, Shape-Changing Ram and Rain God!), but I think the near-extermination of his people disqualify him.)
>>"Then Shargash went to the Stronghold, and from there he released
>>the imprisoned animals and plants, so the world was renewed again."
>
>And this is evidence of Shargash having _intrinsic_ fertility
>powers? When Humakt kills Orlanth and shows his brother how
>to rise again (ST p88), you don't consider Humakt a fertility
>deity.
I think the bit on ST, p.88 is Humakti propaganda, myself, but I realize that my quotes are open to the same cricism.... Taking them both at face value, Shargash is portrayed as returning the living to the world, while Humakt choses not to oppose Orlanth's return, finding it Just.
>>"All of the participants are inevitably plunged deep into the
>>ultimate despair of death, and they all are transferred to the
>>Land of the Dead, and everyone who is released afterwards is
>>also purged and refreshed in the manner which can be provided
>>only by such a rite." (ibid., p.102)
>
>I don't see anything about a fertility rite here. Danfive and
>Gerra have similar rituals but nobody thinks them fertility
>deities.
The Descent into the Underworld and Return to Life is at the heart of many fertility rites. Gerra and Danfive have more of a sense of "purification through suffering" which is, at least to me, different from what Shargash is described as doing. This may be hairsplitting, but that's theology for you.
>The names list does not describe Shargash as the power of
>fertility. It says he "holds" the power of fertility (I
>would have phrased it as saying his destruction causes
>fertility...), but that power is really no different from
>Humakt killing Orlanth and showing him how to rise again.
Again, I think Humakt choses to not oppose Orlanth's renewal. The power that makes the renewal possible is not Humakt's.
>As for it being secret knowledge, I doubt it. Some of the
>secret names in enclosure would be basic information to
>learned Pelorians (such as the information that Shargash
>is Rufelza's brother or that he is lord of the demons).
>It might be knowledge that most Pelorians don't know (because
>they are too frightened to ask a Shargashi why they support
>a bloody-handed destroyer) but it is not something that the
>Shargashi would keep secret.
People have all sorts of reasons for keeping religious knowledge secret. Maybe Shargash has decreed that outside of Alkoth he is the Destroyer, the Thunderer, etc, etc. and that his other faces are hidden. Maybe nobody gives a rip about Alkor outside of Alkoth, so his role is secret becasue no one cares to learn it (as you point out, questioning the people of Shargash is probably not a popular sport). Maybe the priests think that all that talk of fertility and growing is yucky (they are Sky-people after all) and think it reflects poorly on their god, so they keep it quiet. Frankly, I think it's silly, but that's what it says in Enclosure, so I see no reason to try to refute it.
>Because AFAIK he isn't. Yes, some gloranthans do recognize him
>as Rebellus Terminus but that is as mythically valid as the
>recognition that Shargash is Orlanth. It is not part of
>Shargash's core identity.
Greg said in a post "The sun is the Sun" on the Digest on 3 April 2001:
Shargash is not Orlanth and Orlanth is not Shargash. However, both share many traits (violence, presence in all the worlds of Above, Middle and Below worlds) and, if you listen to the stories, both also share some stories (who was it that killed Yelm? Who is Rebellus Terminus?)
I'll admit this is part of a rather confused thread about a number of things, but it suggests that at least some Gloranthans believe that Shagash is Rebellus Terminus. Whether He is or is not "truly" the killer of Yelm has, after all, little to do with the honors His worshippers will claim for Him.
>The only fertility aspect that Shargash is given in enclosure
>is the powers of his son, Alkor. Everything else is war and
>destruction. From the Entekosiad, Alkor appears to be a
>manifestation of Alk, the Goddess of Nature. Now I'm not
>going to speculate on the exact relationships, but I do think
>that Alk is a fertile aspect of nature acceptable to Shargash
>eyes rather than an intrinsic aspect of Shargash himself (in
>much the same way as Harst is acceptable to Orlanth even though
>he's Issaries son).
The model for great gods (gods in general -- look at Yinkin) we've seen so far rolls the worship of children (and non-related associate deities) in with their parents as subcults, or at least offers that option. Even if Alkor is the only fertile part of Shargash worship, he's still part of the great god, in the same way that Harst, Yavor, and Matakos are part of Orlanth the great god. If Alkor has fertility aspects, large or small, Shargash has them as well. You wouldn't say that Ernalda does not have birthing powers because her midwife functions are accessed through worship of Eninta.
Nice stuff on Alk, too. Thanks.
Peter Larsen
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