Subjectivist

From: Greg Stafford <greg_at_glorantha.com>
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:21:09 -0700


At 05:51 AM 5/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_yahoo.com>
>Greg, replying to someone:
>> > > The real problem here is that it appears from
>> > > the sources that the "elemental progression",
>> > > the actions of the Gloranthan Court, the Five
>> > > Movements, the
>separation/devolution/"re-mixing",
>> > > were actually concurrent processes ; which is,
>> > > of course, _why_ the elemental eras prior to
>> > > the Green Age are so hard to understand.
>
>> They were concurrent because no consciousness
>> existed to separate time and space.
>
>That's pretty subjectivist, even for me.
We are talking about mythology here. Mythology is by its very nature subjective.

>Can't we say

I pause to point out that "we say" is a subjective perspective, and perfectly fitting for mythology.
>instead that anyone attempting to experience them through heroquesting is
unable to >distinguish when and where they happen (and for that matter, which events
>cause others)?

 Yes, all that is true. But in fact, for normal people attempting to experience this, they lose their personal bearings. They have no place of understanding from which to view. They are not people, and without a person's perspective lose their very place in the cosmos.

>> Yes, basically because the Green Age ends when
>> humanity's human consciousness begins.
>Or perhaps inidividuals' consciousness, including Uz,
>merpeople, etc. (though not Aldryami, interestingly).
Probably including Aldryami, too, where we mean "the elves." Elves have individual consciousness. It is just different from human individual consciousness in many ways, especially that they retain the consciousness of much (not all) of pre-individuated existence.

>You could say that humans were conscious in some sort
>of group fashion (like the Aldryami) before that.
Yes, you could say that and it may be true for some people in some manner. The stories indicate it. In Entekosiad we find the "Men's Tribe" (which had women in it) and the Womens' Tribe (which had men in it). We can see that groups existed and people were part of those groups. Note, however, that they did not always have the same idea of what the group was, or was made up of, and so on.

>> Note that if they do get to the "blue age" then they
>> disappear as individuals.
>I was thinking that any Black Age would negate
>individuality entirely.

When various races attempt to understand, though mythical experience (ie, Heroquesting) the world before they existed then they must inevitably come from their current existence. They must inevitably project something of themselves "back" to that state to understand it. The result is that darkness creatures find a darkness world, sea creatures a sea world, human creatures a human world and so on.
When the GL tried those experiments they considered themselves to be nonhuman when they did merman rituals, and found an aquatic realm; when they did troll rites they found a darkness realm, and so on.

>The Green Age allows for an understanding of things
>being separate and even being able to say when or
>where they are different. Otherwise, we would really
>be unable to visit it at all. But there is some
>significant inability to place meaning on any
>difference. Sure, you and me are separate things, but
>so what? I don't really get the why of it.
In the Green Age you and I are not separate things. We are members of the same people, not individual beings. We are the clan, for instance. I know this is difficult for us to understand in the modern western way of thinking.

>When the Golden Age begins, the difference is clear.
>You and I are separate. The stifling order of the
>golden age is an attempt to impose a meaning on the
>difference.

Basically correct. As soon as meaning is given to anything, the Green Age is over.

>Or that's my rudimentary feel for it. It's enough for
>playing and that's all I really care about.
It is plenty.



Greg Stafford, greg_at_glorantha.com
Issaries, Inc. 900 Murmansk St., Suite 5; Oakland, CA 94607 Phone: (510) 452 1648 Fax: (510) 302 0385 Publisher of Hero Wars, Roleplaying in Glorantha See our site at: <www.glorantha.com>

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