> > I disagree for the very simple reason that Langamul (through Bolongo's
> > actions) lies beyond what is reachable through ordinary animism. What
> > everybody gets now is Amuron at best (who is difficult to reach).
>In the light of this, I suddenly remember what the Orlanthi call
>Silence. It's not that they talk about it very often.
It's not something they _meet_ very often. Look at Thunder Rebels or Storm Tribe and point out where the Silence makes an appearance. Likewise the similar Pelorian concept, Vezkarvez, is nigh unreachable by the most Pelorians. For this reason, even though the Doraddi know Langamul made the world - I do not believe that he is easily reachable in their Holy Day ceremonies.
> > A fetch is not a sign of dedication to a great spirit as there are
> > several brands of Shamanism that do not have a fetch. Secondly the
> > Fetch has been described in the HW as part of the self. I'm not
> > stating that it is impossible for Doraddi (or Hsunchen or Praxians)
> > to have fetches that are autonomous spirits from the spirit world -
> > but rather it's unwise to define shamanism in terms of a particular
> > brand of shaman.
>I think that all Shamans have a mundane self, and an Otherworld self
>which is described in the HW rules as their Fetch
Many real world shamanic traditions do not have a fetch. Furthermore the Fetch is nowhere indicated as being essential for shamanhood in the HW rules. It even goes as far as to state about the Shamanic abilities (about which having a fetch is one).
"Most Shamans who know all the skills below, although some
traditions might lack one or two, or have a special aspect of
these skills. For example, an exorcist might not have Spirit
World Travel, but have Cast Out of Body as a speciality of
Spirit Combat that does not require travelling to the other side."
p207 HW: RiG.
Hence to define Shamanhood in terms of having a fetch is wrong IMO.
>This is for the purpose of transcending the duality of Nature
>and the Spirit World, as Noruma says...
How does having a fetch transcend the duality of Nature and the Spirit World? Not all fetches are simply psychic extensions of the self - some are simply friendly spirits.
>Like Noruma, Shamans are both male & female, death & life, nature &
>spirit, fuel & combustive, the Firemakers, etc. at least when they
>make fire.
I'm a bit leery of whether the firemaking motif will still remain. Greg's already used it prominently in the non-Shamanic Yelm religion and it seems a bit careless to recycle it unchanged for the Doraddi.
> > The trouble I have with this statement is that it means non-Shamanic
> > Animists are hopeless heroquesters (which is also the problem I
> > have with the current slant of Animism rules in HW:RiG).
>Many dead people would be hopeless dead without a psychopomp.
So? Animists are still at a disadvantage compared to other magicians and that to me is wrong.
>A shamanic hero can travel to places of the Spirit World proper
>if he is supported by a shaman
But why _should_ an animistic (not Shamanic) hero need a shaman? Orlanthi heroquesters do not need to be God Talkers and Malkioni aren't required to be sorcerers. So I do not see why we should have to handicap animist heroes to be lousy heroquesters if they are not shamans.
Jerome then attempts to define Shamanism in terms of their keywords. I shan't pick it to pieces but note that it is flawed in that it assumes that all shamans have the same shamanic abilities, which is not supported by the HW: rules as quoted above.
--Peter Metcalfe
--__--__--
Powered by hypermail