> >Already we're striking problems. Violence is not intrinsically chaotic
> >neither are most forms of cannibalism (Praxians, Uz and Salilgori).
>
> According to Greg, as I understand it, they are. Every act of
>cannibalism strengthens the Ogre Ancestor.
That does not mean that an act of cannibalism is intrinsically chaotic. It simply means that the Ogre Ancestor receives collateral worship from other acts of cannibalism. But any Ogre cannibalism also strengthens other cannibal gods through the same method.
To use your logic, peace is chaotic since Gark the Calm is a chaotic god of peace and acts of peacemaking would aid him in some way.
>Whatever violence* falls within Urain's "mandate" strengthens him.
Urain receives slight benefit from acts of unreasoning violence but so do all other gods with similar natures (Urox, Shargash, Zorak Zoran). Violence is a _natural_ part of Glorantha.
>The acts do not necessarily cause chaos to come bubbling up nearby
>(as you point out below), but they do directly aid chaos and undermine
>the world.
They cannot "directly aid" chaos if the benefit is gained through collateral worship. The actions do not aid "chaos", but aid gods that are representative of that act.
> >Hence your general objection [that unsavory cultures must be overrun
> >with chaos] does not arise.
>Except, as I explain at much greater length below, Gloranthan
>cultures (or at least some Gloranthan cultures) understand that
>cannibalism can turn you into an ogre.
Only one kind of cannibalism can turn you into an ogre - the abandonment of morality. Other forms of cannibalism (Exiles, Cannibal Cult, Telmori, Salilgori) are non-chaotic and part of the cosmos. Their practitioners do not turn into Ogres.
>So "chaotic acts" must have observable chaotic effects often
>enough for the various cultures to make the connection.
Yes, it is observable. But you are confused between acts that strengthen the god collaterally and acts which directly strengthen the god. The former acts (such as cannibalism) are not chaotic acts. The latter acts (like rape) are chaotic.
> >Whereas if we can say all rape is bad no matter who does it, we
> >can avoid having to wade through this... theorizing.
>OK, let me repeat this: rape is bad. Rape is evil. Rape is evil in
>the real world and in any Glorantha that I care to be associated with. I am
>not, at any point during this discussion, saying that rape is not evil.
But constructing fanciful justifications as to why Rape is less bad for a CharUn does just exactly that. It's also pointless since the Broos have an even more enthusiastic view of rape than any CharUn could yet they are still chaotic.
>But, in stories set in Glorantha, evil cannot always mean observable
>chaos, if for no other reason that it collapses the rich web of Gloranthan
>conflicts down to a single axis.
Nobody ever said it does. What was stated was that _some_ evil acts are chaotic. The only person who apparently thinks that all unsavory acts in glorantha have been deemed chaotic is you.
> Now, if we say that rape is always chaotic (and not "merely" evil)
>in the sense that it strengthens Thed, who is chaotic, that's great but
>also hair-splitting theological theorization with little relevance to what
>most people seem to mean when they say chaos.
Why? Thed is the Goddess of Rape. Thed is Rape (just as Orlanth is Storm). Thed is a chaos deity. Rape is chaotic. Where's the hair-splitting in that? It is also the published Orlanthi belief (KoS p77).
> In the first case, it's all "theorizing," because there is no
>observable connection between the evil act and the chaotic
>consequence.
Yes, there is. Rapists turn into Broos. Gloranthan Fact.
> The CharUn are, in my opinion, an evil culture, but they are not,
>as far as I know, obserably chaotic.
They worship the Red Moon, who contains within her an acceptance of chaos. Through the brutally simple viewpoint of the CharUn, they are bound to have some chaos within their lands. As for "observably", the CharUn have not been described in any detail. They probably have a place for chaos-afflicted warriors within their society.
>Their viciousness and acceptance of
>acts like rape (at least within some context) does not apparantly lead to
>the wide-spread appearance of observable chaos among them as it would if
>those cultural values were transplanted to a Heortling clan.
Given that Greg's stated in the past (and I've quoted this recently):
::In Glorantha soldiers who rape are as much subject to turning
::into broo as anyone. I am sure that some military cultures at least have
::ceremony or rites that may slow down this process, and I am sure that there
::are a million justifications for it ("rape is very common"), but I assure
::you that in my Glorantha all soldiers are in danger of becoming broos for
::this action.
I don't see any need for constructing elaborate justifications for CharUn not turning into Broos.
--Peter Metcalfe
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End of Glorantha Digest
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