> I have to say I am very uncomfortable with this idea. If the propensity
for
> human beings in Glorantha to commit atrocities is less than human beings
in
> the RW, then they are not human beings as we know them and this opens up a
> whole can of worms. What I like about Glorantha is the human factor,
though
> etched on a glorious mythic landscape, people are still people, good or
bad.
>
The Lord of the Rings: Orcs = Gloranthan Broos? Greg tries to make his original world unique, so he wants to select another way, and some of Japanese RQ players have said that the most fascinating aspect of Glorantha derived from its reality....but the term "reality" hides something very difficult to comprehend.
Evilside vs Goodside. Tolkien didn't like Metaphor, but he was bothered by that because he risked his world for it. RW is ugly place for him.
Perhaps you feel uncomfortable for the Greg's concept about Law versus Chaos: Last Stage of Hero Wars.
> In our own history acts of atrocity stand out and are noted, such as the
sack
> of Jerusalem by the Crusaders, the blinding of the Bulgar army by the
> Byzantines, the utter destruction of Carthage in the 3rd Punic war, the
> persecution of the Cathar heresy, the campaigns of Shalmaneser III, the
> Mongol invasion of the Russian kingdoms, the Wallachian slaughter of an
> Ottoman army on spikes etc etc. I could go on for a long, long time.
These
> are acts perpetrated by humans and we are only discussing war, we haven't
yet
> mentioned the Inquisition or all the unsavory social institutions that
> practiced torture and undoubtedly rape, child abuse and other evils.
>
You should include Nazis and experiments of Japanese 731 regiment, and
Stalin's Massacre.
Fantasy World is secure relief for some of us. Because it is "distant" past.
> It is these things, these evils that men do, that counterpoint the good in
> man, show the shades of gray and give us our martyrs, heroes and rebels.
If,
> in Glorantha we remove these aspects of humanity because we find them
> unpleasant to face, cope with or play out, then we a thinning down the
very
> humanity of the game world that makes it so interesting.
>
See Lord Dunsany's Tales. His tales perfectly transcends Reality and
achieves beauty, IMHO.
Beauty is true object for artists, but not for gamers or students.
> I for one am against any human turning into another species for these
> actions. I can see such people turning _to_ chaos, for those lost so far
in
> inflicting human misery will usually stop at little, but rape=broo is to
> convenient for me, it's as if Glorantha has our modern day ideal morality
> imposed on it to remove this aspect of humanity from our game view by
> providing an absolute cosmic judgement. "If you commit THIS sin, the
cosmos
> will judge you THIS way, for all to see."
That is what Daniel translated from the wall.
(Snip)
> Nick comments:
> >Now, that's never been an overwhelming element in my view of Char Un
> >culture.
>
> Nor mine, Wesleys' or Marks'. I assure anyone that when the Char-un Sons
of
> Kargzant books does appear (when all our other outstanding and more
important
> projects are done!), this will not be, nor should it be, an important
factors
> in their culture. The Char-un or other Pentans might be more likely to
> commit atrocities than many civilised armies but not _that_ much more
likely.
>
> >I think Hetman Ignatieff is an outstandingly unsavoury type,
> >even for the Char Un.
>
IMHO such kind of analogy to RW people is risky, even if there aren't enough
RW nomad Gloranthaphiles.
As a one of RW mongolian relative stock....I feel a little antipathy.
I cannot find necessity Char Uns being more brutal than other LE minority
stock.
> This is always the problem with peoples perception of things in Glorantha.
> They get one tiny snippet of info and extrapolate the entire culture from
> that. Instead of basing it on human cultures everywhere and working from
> there, the part equals the whole.
>
> >Chris himself has never dwelt on the rape/chaos
> >incidence on the taiga, and for my part I don't think anyone else should
> >waste time considering it.
>
> I think that this is a less than relevant part of Char-un culture, as you
> say. Yes some char-un rapists turn into broos, but then some utterly
> innocent people turn into broos, it is CHAOS after all and is not
predictable
> nor is it bound by a set of rules.
>
> >This hobby is supposed to be about *fun*
> >stuff, not detailed descriptions of rape, necrophilia and mutilation.
>
> I concur, however I would caveat that and say that sometimes, a detailed
> description of this in the midst of usual game play can certainly focus
the
> minds of the players and bring home the gravity of the situation. One of
my
> players in the Gwandor saga was raped by an NPC as an act of domination
and
> insult (Funnily enough the NPC has turned to chaos but that was nothing to
do
> with the act, he was crazy anyway), you should see what a hate-on he has
for
> that NPC now, utter and total. He took it personally and so he should, it
> was a violation.
Extremely speaking, I know RPG doesn't need any fantasy or out of RW resource for interesting campaign. And your Gwandorling Saga tend to RW aspect from Greg's POV, I know. I don't want to judge it good or not. (It might have influenced your ILH series.) I think Efendi and Joerg might agree with you for their own preference. RW is too complicated, that is blessing for one, curse for another.
Such Kind of Debate already appeared in HW 1st Edition Rule: p.149.
Greg:
> I'd like to back this up.
> I for one am very weary of this discussion, and though I am not telling
> people to stop, I am wondering why it is dragging on and on.
> Let me try a last word on it: whatever you want in your game is the way
> that it works. People in Glorantha don't understand it, have many debates,
> and the application of "reason" to it is inconclusive.
> Decide where your characters stand on the issue and play that.
> But can't we get back to something more interesting, like subjectivity and
> myth or maybe Yelmalio's origins, or anything else.
>
Middle Road is from temperance.
But some part of you prefer choosing Dionysus to Apollo.
As far as I know, Fantasy and Real World are opposite vectors to each other in a sense.
" Sometimes, I love Red Moon and Greg for the sake of its color and Light is Unreliable."
>
>Me: >My prejudice:
> >"RW proves that Rokari Kingdom of Tanisor never unite under One Banner
> >because their have two heads: King's Court and Ecclesiarch as RW Roman
> >Catholic Church.
>
> >But Greg seems to hold another idea....
>
> What idea are you putting into me here?
> The Tanisor/Seshnela story is an epic of struggle between the pope and the
> king. They will struggle, your cmapaign will decide which one wins and
then
> turns to conquer Ralios. The ecclesiarch launches an iconclastic purge.
> Lots of bad stuff happens.
>
I wrote from the POV of tanisorian history. (King can replace one ecclesiach
to another, but he cannot easily erase the system of Rokari church itself.)
I know the End of World closes to Glorantha in HW.
But historian usually never talks about it.
Joerg and Peter:
How about Rokari in Heortland?
> > > > Peter thinks that Pharaoh's reign Heortland was Orlanthi
> > > > Heortling aside from few exceptions, but Joerg thinks (I
> > > > guess) Aeolians held relatively great power than Peter
> > > > suggested.
>
> > > This has been reconciled by the publications in TR and subsequent
> > > manuscripts. Less Aeolians in the north than I said, way more
> > > influential in the south than Peter wanted to admit.
>
> The current thinking from Issaries, or to be more precise, what Greg
> was musing on the topic a couple of weeks ago, is that the Aeolian's
> strength in Heortland is recent (as a result of cooperation between them
> and King Rikard) and that most of the Malkioni are conservatives/Rokari
> that live in the river valleys (as per the old article).
>
It means that there is relatively drastic change occurred after the Death of
Belintar?
Greg might change again, don't trust him. (He is usually sincere, but not
honest.)
Joerg:
<<Last time I talked to Greg (and he was musing then, too) the Aeolians
were so dominant for Esvular that they were the main HeroQuest keyword
for that region. But Greg's musings are as steady as the winds...
We'll know as soon as there is official word on events and places in Heortland. Which might take some time... Until then, I'll try to salvage my material as far as I can against changes imposed on me, and formulate a useful personal interpretation.>>
In a sense, Greg is an embodiment of agnosticism and the space of each Narrator's ad lib and discretion.
> >Peter might want to think that the influence of Malkioni to Heortland
should
> >be smallest level.
>
> Less than 15% is what was stated long ago in Different Worlds #28.
>
It is as same as the condition of Sartarites.
> > > Peter says "they are overtribes" and refers to the substructures
within
> > > as normal tribes. I tell them tribes and admit substructures like
> > > triaties or huge clans. The difference is mostly whether the
> > > substructures are led by tribal kings or by chieftains.
>
> I dunno where Joerg is getting this from. There are no normal tribes
> within the Heortland earldoms - only baronies and sheriffs.
>
> > > The Holy Country article especially calls them "civilized Orlanthi",
> > > which indicates they are different from their barbarian cousins say in
> > > Talastar or Aggar.
>
> >Peter might not agree the idea they are so specifically "Civilized" with
> >Malkioni state of mind at least before and after of Belintar
> >Though I and you imagined so from RQ#3 Genertela Box and GITHW.
>
> I said their religion was not malkionized in that they are theists.
>
The two sides remained as far apart as ever.
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