TI:
Below is my attempt of translation among me, Joerg and Efendi about
shipmaking technology in Glorantha, some of their POV about the technology
in fantasy world is out of my taste, but Joerg and Efendi seems to have
common concern about the detail of the ships and of those history. So I
managed to translate their discussion and explanation here arranged to all
English. But it might have possibility of mis-translation for my short of
knowledge for navigation terms.
TI:
>
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ty2m-iwsk/rq/script/history/gloranthan/misc/the_
> > history_of_the_shipbuildings_in_glorantha.html
> > He wrote some about it in Japanese and have a plan to translate it into
English ....What is the system differnce of dhow of Arabia, nao of Portugal
and caravel of Spaniard?
>
Joerg:
> Don't know much about the nao, but the caravel differs e.g. in the
> castles, possibly in the plank structure, and quite likely in the
> rigging for more than one mast. If you can somehow get your hands on it,
> Fantasy Games Unlimited (FGU) published an excellent source for ancient
> ships in "Bireme and Galley". For a good collection of nautical English
> vocabulary I use Harnmaster's "Pilot's Almanach".
>
TI:
>> Efendi asked: what is the system difference of dhow of
>> Arabia, nao of Portugal and caravel of Spaniard? (He think
>> all of them are same labelled with different names.)
Joerg:
>>From what I have seen, the Spanish caravels had different rigging than
>>the Dhow rigging which Roald Amundsen applied for his "Tigris" reed boat
>>expedition (which led from Iraq via India to Somalia). Notably the
>>upside-down "V" mast is different from any European technology I have
>>seen, but that may have been special to the reed boat construction.
TI:
I'm no expert for shipbuilding and navigation, but I can say I understand
that system of rigging and mast are different as Efendi said, (though I
don't know well about the meaning of "Rigging" aside from few few
information I leaned from the memo of yours and Efendi's.)
About Tigris and Amundsen
http://www.oslopro.no/index/oslopro2.php?folder=hoved_e&file=6 http://www.madein.no/explorers.htm http://prorev.com/ecology.htm
Efendi:
I can't understand why Joerg mentioned about the V-signed mast wasn't in
european shipmaking technology while he talked about the "rigging".
For a historical fact, Portuguese copied trianglar sail of muslim ship in
Barbary (Joerg squarely calls it as Lateen Rigging?), but Portuguese
Caravelle is different from Byzantine ships which also learned shipdesign
from Barbary Corsairs for they had round bow (prow.)
As I pointed out once, the number of mast and protruding deck is not a
unique pattern of Rigging for both groups in my opinion.
Efendi:
Usually, in a typical introduction, dhow has two masts while caravelle has
three masts. But I can say there are some dhows which have four masts while
there is some caravelle with only one mast. It's not the characteric which
takes apart one from other. If I can define dhow as a ship with Lateen
Rigging and a keel, there is no difference between the two. Plank only
depends on the purpose of the shipmaking and trade ships don't require
plank.
As far as I know, the name of Caravelle was named after the caravelle-style which styles outside plank like a stinking up of bricks. But dhows are used even in modern age while caravelle has been changed to xebec and later, schooner.
<<Joerg (again):
> Don't know much about the nao, but the caravel differs e.g. in the
> castles, possibly in the plank structure, and quite likely in the
> rigging for more than one mast. If you can somehow get your hands on it,
> Fantasy Games Unlimited (FGU) published an excellent source for ancient
> ships in "Bireme and Galley". For a good collection of nautical English
> vocabulary I use Harnmaster's "Pilot's Almanach".>>
TI:
I cannot understand.....a type of rigging is differnt from other for Joerg, but same for Efendi.....what is the difference of western and eastern trianglar sails....and.....V-shaped mast......Perhaps there is serious communication barrier for linguistic....or my misconception of shipbuilding and navigation terms......
>
> http://www.sainet.or.jp/~k-naka/sj.html
TI:
If you can, would you please teach me with website links......?
Efendi:
Rigging [Navigation Term] Sail, Mast and ropes and other gears, a system of
driving sails. The general term for the wire and
rope lines used to secure masts and sails. this category can be divided to
standing riggings which hold mast and running riggings which drive and
control sails.
While Joerg tells about Lateen Rigging, he combines a mast and a sail into this term.
While I stated independently gaff (beam which holds sail tilted) and lateen sail (trianglar canvas) for in Rome and some other places, they tried to hang square canvases with gaff.
> Notably the upside-down "V" mast is different from any European technology
I have
> seen
While we concerned about the translation for riggings and sails, as a matter of Joerg's context:
Efendi:
I should confess here about my past misunderstanding.
I skimed through the phrases and saw only "V" in the the
upside-down "V" mast and thought Joerg mentioned about gaff and triangular
sail. But actually Joerg used this term as double masts combined as a tripod
and held by binding upper-parts.
But how about it? From all of my materials at hand, ancient styles like the
ship of ancient Egytians formed such style for it didn't have enough
strength with single mast.
While zaruk, baghla and sambuk, sorts of variations of dhow have masts made
from a single wood trunk.
TI:
I translated from J to E, Efendi wasn't satisfied with my translation.
> Efendi's Simple Chart (Translated by TI)
> Countries Warship Tradeship
>
> Yggs Isles Longship -
> Vadeli Isles Longship Carrack
> Loskalm Longship Cogs
> Lunar Empire Longship Pontoon (Ark?)
> Seshnela Galley (Punt)
> Safelster Galley (Punt)
> Quinpolic Galley Carrack
> Esrolia Galley Cogs
> Teshnos Junk Junk
> Kralorela Junk Junk
> Vormain Dhow Troopship-with-Oar-Tier
> East Isles Dhow Dhow
> Pamaltela Dhow Dhow
> Valind Glacier - Hidebag-Boat
> Sozganzio - Reedboat
>
>
> Is it right?
Joerg's Revised Chart
Yggs Isles Longship Knarr
Vadeli Isles Longship Carrack
Loskalm Longship Cogs
Lunar Empire Longship Barge (flat bottomed river craft)
Seshnela Galley (Barge?)
Safelster Galley (Barge?)
Quinpolic Galley Carrack
> Esrolia Galley Cogs
> Teshnos Junk Junk (Melib: warships possibly galleys (Kethaelan) or
otherwise rowed.)*
> Kralorela Junk Junk
> Vormain (Dhow) (Troopship-with-Oar-Tier)? (Isn't this unusual that trade
vessels are rowed and war vessels aren't?)**
> East Isles Huge-War-Canoes? Tallships?***
> Pamaltela Dhow Dhow
>Maslo Outrigger Outrigger
> Valind Glacier - Hidebag-Boat
> Sozganzio - Reedboat
>
TI comments:
*(Efendi thinks that Joerg might told true but there is no ports of call
between Kethaela and Teshnos and he thinks Junk type ship originated from
Teshnos. (Efendi doesn't have G:ITHW, so he didn't know well about conflict
between Harstar of Melib and Teshnan court.))
**(Efendi thinks that vormaino Merchant Ship sails only inner sea while
warship Tsankthi mainly sails outside of Vormaino Forbidden Sea areas.)
***(As I said, Efendi doesn't like kind of highly fantastic constracts out
of logic and physics in Glorantha.)
Chart:
>> Countries Warship Tradeship
>> Yggs Isles Longship -
Joerg:
>Trader: Knarr (a tubbier version of the Longship)
Chart:
>> Vadeli Isles Longship Carrack
>> Loskalm Longship Cogs
>> Lunar Empire Longship Pontoon (Ark?)
Joerg:
>Trader: Barge (flat bottomed river craft)
Chart:
>> Seshnela Galley Punt
>> Safelster Galley Punt
Joerg:
>Punt? That's the English term for the river boat driven by stakes on the
>river Cam in Cambridge, not a trade craft.
>While I'm no native speaker of English, I think the term is again barge,
>or possibly raft for downriver travel.
(TI:
Sorry, this is perfectly from my clumsy translation.)
Efendi:
That is not what I intended!
I thought about a sort of egyptian giant reed boat.
TI:
Is it right with translation of Reed Boat?
Chart:
>> Quinpolic Galley Carrack
>> Esrolia Galley Cogs
>> Teshnos Junk Junk
Joerg:
>Melib: warships possibly galleys (Kethaelan) or otherwise rowed.
Chart:
>> Kralorela Junk Junk
>> Vormain Dhow Troopship-with-Oar-Tier
Joerg:
>Isn't this unusual that trade vessels are rowed and war vessels aren't?
Chart:
>> East Isles Dhow Dhow
Joerg:
>Huge war canoes? Tallships?
Chart:
>> Pamaltela Dhow Dhow
>> Valind Glacier - Hidebag-Boat
>> Sozganzio - Reedboat
>> Is it right? (TI: Who knows about Sozganzio.....?)
Joerg:
>Mostly correct.
Joerg:
>Maslo: Outrigger Outrigger
TI:
In Kareeshtu, there is a large scale fleet that is consist of small dhaws
and xebecs, (my personal image is english merchant ships gathering
around Invincible Armada of Spain) They colonized Kumanku Isles after Vadeli
was driven from there by Kareeshuti and Flanchi. (Vadeli once allied with
Afadjanni for conquering Kareeshutu.) But their navy which landed to Loral
Islands was completely destroyed by monsters (haha...)
Efendi:
I image corsairs of Barbary from the type of xebec....that is what my most
main concerned area.
But I doubted the existence of xebec in Glorantha.....with lateen gaffsail
that is origin of modern schooners. It is far more progressed than
caravelles!
AD1802, Cosairs destroyed a USA frigate fleet and caught one ship. But that is one of the reason why no one protested to the French conquest of Algeria in 1830, France used the propaganda of Subjugation of corsairs for their conquest from Imperialism.
TI:
Umm, is xebec perfectly from recent world? Can't similar type of ships
be.....in ancient world?
Efendi:
Canvas is bound to mast. Of Square sail, the middle of sail beams are banded
to mast, and sails can be slightly regulated to left and right by the ropes
which are from sail beams.
But you can bind sail beams a little far from middle of it to mast....such kind of beams and sails are called gaffsails, and in such kind of beams matched to trianglar canvas, a sailing with gaffsails and trianglar sail is called "Lateen Riggings" (Sails?) You can flexibly regulate the angle of sails toward wind.
Moreover, if you increase the number of mast to seven around, and you can catch more wind by sails, then you begin to think that beams can be set on lengthwisely and you can drive ship against wind. That fluit of invention is used in schooners (TI: as there is a confusion about the term use between Joerg and Efendi, I can't translated this word as "Lateen Riggings" or "gaffsails".)
It is not easy to increase the number of masts for it needs strong but light
material.
In my opinion, Xebec is a type of dhows with sails of lengthwise toward
mast, so it should be invented after dhows.
But in Glorantha mast material problem might be resolved by the enchantment
of rune metals.
--__--__--
End of Glorantha Digest
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