Re: Integration

From: Wulf Corbett <wulfc_at_...>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:54:55 -0000

> >True, I knew that when I attempted to find a 'back door'...
> Why do you want to find a back door to integrate ancestors?
> HW already gives rules for heroforming of ancestors.

Heroforming does not perform the same function as Integration, unless you keep the ancestor around permanently. And there are RW and fantasy literature examples of learning secrets from ancestral spirits that don't involve the ancestor hanging around all your life.

> Considering that there's no subsumation of ancestors (or
> anything resembling integration as defined in the FAQ) in
> the writeup of Daka Fal as described in Cults of Prax and
> River of Cradles, I don't think that Ancestor worshippers
> in general will integrate their spirits for the same
> reason that Grazers don't.

In RQ you learn spells that you may use as often as your available POW/Magic Points allow, from then onwards. Whatever the source, that sounds like Integration to me, given the difference in game mechanics. Admittedly, RQ required a fetish to use a Spirit Magic spell, but the spell was in the character, without the fetish it could still be cast as a ritual, and anyway Integrating an ancestor into a fetish doesn't sound too polite either!

> >And thirdly, as I said, I know it doesn't fir the
> >rules as written, I was simply trying to find a way to allow
> >Integration of Ancestors, should it seem necessary to have such a
> >mechanism.
> But in doing so, you are making it acceptable for _every_
> animist culture to integrate their ancestors.

Not at all, no more than the Hsunchen make shapechanging acceptable for _every_shaman. It's a matter of what abilities are in a specific Tradition.

>You were
> even suggesting it was important on the Prax list despite the
> complete absence of anything hitherto resembling integration
> (as defined by the HW rules) of ancestors in the Praxian
> material to date.

I think it's important to think it through, yes. And as I said above, RQ rules on learning spells sound far more like Integration than anything else.  

> >So, what would YOU do if a Shaman achieved a Complete Victory when
> >attempting to bind an Ancestral Spirit (by whatever means, Spirit
> >Combat or otherwise)? Just ignore it and give him 3/day uses?
> >Imprison the Ancestor in a fetish?
> It depends on what my tradition is.

Exactly. But a Complete Victory WILL happen, regularly, with existing Animists, so if you're in a game with an Ancestor Worshipping Shaman (as I am), it's a good idea to consider the possibilities beforehand.


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