> From: "Mike Holmes" <mike_c_holmes_at_...>
continues the discussion on
> Subject: Re: Heroquest/Spiritquest/Essence Plane
> Sorry to take so long getting back to this.
I, for one, do not worry about the seeming delay. I've yet to comment onthe just-passed duck discussin, which I am told I ought to get into.
> First I want to say that apparently I must have come off as trying to
> challenge somebody's authority on something, when I'm just trying to figure
> out if how I understand Gloranthan cosmology works.
If this is directed at me, please be assured that I have no such feeling. If others do, let the deal.
> And forgive my lack of
> knowledge about individual Gloranthan myths. I try to use them as examples
> for common ground, not because I have a good handle on them.
Again, no problem from me. If my responses seem to be scolding or irritated, please forive me and blame it on this devilish media we are using.
> I've also used
> Earth myth examples, which is not me saying that I think said myths exist in
> Glorantha, but rather working on a hypothetical, "If Earth had these
> otherworlds, then X would be a Y sort of myth."
I might appear canky on this, but am trying to be informative. I have been studying maythology for maybe 50 years, and sometimes feel I have insights tht others have failed to see. So if I correct these, it is more likely that I am trying to teach rather than scold.
So let's jam!
> Because, to reiterate, the original question was what a heroquest by a
> wizard might look like.
Thanks for starting over!
> That is, I think from examples that many of us have
> an idea of what a theist quest might have as stations, and I get a general
> feel for what an animist quest might be about, but I'm proposing some ideas
> about what wizardry quests might be like. I could well be wrong, but that'd
> be as good to know as learning that I'm right. Better yet, just what they
> are like would be optimum.
I want to make it clear: the form is the same for theist, shamanic or
sorcerous
quests. The whole preparation, crossing over, "stations" with their HeroQuest
moment, return and then mundane consequences work for all three.
> To that extent, I understand that going to the Heroplane to get something is
> a heroquest, and that, generally, this is what's done. And that the
> heroplane is just as "mixed" as the mundane world, and that one should
> expect to tumble into a being from one particular otherworld any more likely
> than another.
Yes.
> But it still seems likely to me (and I may still be very wrong), that an
> adept will go on heroquests for which he knows the myths, said myths likely
> being part of his religion's lore.
You are correct.
> So, my guesses seeming to be all wrong,
> I'll simply ask directly, what do these wizardry myths contain, typically? I
> know that's a gross question, but are there no typical myths?
I am at a loss about what a *typical* theistic heroquest might be!
> What sort of
> folks are they about, Saints, Essences, God? What sort of travails do they
> come up against? Are there any common sort of outcomes that they seek?
It seems you are making this harder than it needs to be.
These holy people have to solve the same problems that gods have to solve:
hunger, blight, infertility, enemy invasion, drought, alien entities, flood,
etc. etc.
Their resolutions would be much the same: find a solution and perform it.
They method of magic used is different, but that does not appreciably
alter the
way the problem is solved.
> On somewhat of a tangent, there seem to be examples of people going to other
> planes to get things, as well. You give an example that some magic items
> might be retrieved from the various pure otherworlds.
Rather than retrieving something from them, think of it as being
"charged up" by
them. For insance, there is an archtypal sword on the Saint Plane. It is the
source of all sorcerously magical swords. You can NEVER remove that sword from
there. Were such a thing to occur then all magic swords would lose magical
power, because that node is the source of their magical power.
But you could bring a sword into the node, associate it with that primal sword
and, if the linking woks, come out with an imitation of it. It wouldn't be the
First Sword, but it'd be enough like it that contemporaries would
probably call
it the First Sword. It'd work much like it, although of course not
perfectly--it'd have a weakness because it began as a physical sword and if
some foe discovered that weakness they could defeat it, even remove the magic
from it.
> Also magic abilities
> can be gained there.
The magical ability for the sorcerous plane is the one described in getting spells and grimoires.
> Even though these are not heroquests per se, would it
> be out of line mechanically to use the heroquest rules like the heroquest
> challenge, and stations, in order to enumerate such trips, when they do
> occur? Or should they be like normal existence, with normal contests, and
> just be an excuse to buy the ability at 13?
Powerful beings who have discovered (one might say invented, though incorectly since they pre-exist on the Sorcerous Plane) how to access magic from a node would have left a path to do the same thing that can be followed to gain a similiar magic. So, yes, those could be repeated into the Planes.
BUT there is no need if one is just getting a spell, for instance. It
is like a
stationary ritual, a ceremony, not a heroquest.
> From: "Bryan" <bethexton_at_...>
continues and offers some insights
>> Because, to reiterate, the original question was what a heroquest
> by a
>> wizard might look like.
>
> Just a quick personal opinion about quest natures.
>
> As you mentioned, I think we have reasonable examples of theistic
> quests, and I think a fair bit of greek, norse, and other myths give
> examples too. It focuses around the actions of key figures who get
> to define the world.
This is the same form that is used for all the methods of heroquesting.
One must
not think of heroquesting as a theist thing. It works for all the systems in
going to the Hero Planes.
> For spirit quests the model that jumps to my mind are the stories of
> faerie—where things are seldom quite what they seem, often
> arbitrary, and there are lots of people of local power to deal with,
> each following their own nature.
I'd extend that to be true for all heroquests. That is the world of the Gods
War.
Going to the Spirit Plane, as a shaman, to get spirits is different mainly in
that it requires shamanic powers todo so. The shamans would follow the same
system, though. It's just so dangerous as o be impossible for normal people.
> For essence quests I think the key is to look at the nature of
> essences. They are very much purely what they are. That is, a god
> of a river is the god, who takes form in the river. The spirit of
> the river may have all sorts of characteristics along with the
> riverine nature. But the essence of a river is simply, purely,
> perfectly a river.
First of all, most rivers are mixed waters of course.
For the pure rivers--first, few exist today, though the farther back in myth
time one goes the more common they are.
I think what you are sayin here is that the essences are not reated as beings
with pesonalities. This is essentially true. This is one of the differences of
the Sorcerous Plane in general--they are essences, not personalities.
I do not really understand your diference between the god and spirits, though,
since both are the spiritual manifestations of the mundane thing, and
eithr may
have other characteristics.
> And so tends everything else—and this pure,
> almost logical nature—it considered desirable*. Breaks in this
> order are probably the cause of most quest-worthy travel. So I
> imagine something a bit like "The Land of Logic" if you happened to
> have read that L. Sprague de Campe story. You travel through hills
> which are perfectly hills, then they end and you are in mountains,
> which are perfectly mountains—nothing fuzzy or poorly defined.
> Well, nothing fuzzy or poorly defined except where things are
> breaking down, which is probably exactly where you are headed....
Your descriptions are not incorrect for the perfect forms, in the earliest
mythological days.
As for the Otherworlds, your defintion is fine for any of the worlds,
though as
described in HQ, the perspective offerred by the magical systems is slightly
different in that it is generally from inside of somethign looking out.
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