Re: [ImmoderateHeroQuest] Re: [HeroQuest-RPG] Re: Winter Spirits

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_cLwnCViKbAtSUHKDAKFwHolKIDKhD9heiueBw5AmJMtLMNHIUPPAiV6-2o1kKBE1IDY>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:33:00 +1200

At 08:58 PM 6/26/2005 +0200, you wrote:

> >The Prosopaedia is not a GL document as it describes
> >many deities that exist after all the God Learners were
> >killed.

>OK, well in that case it's a non-Gloranthan document written by Greg and
>friends, many years ago, and given the number of Greggings that have
>taken place since, can be held to be generally worthless as a sharp
>instrument for HQ-era nitpickery purposes.

Was is it generally worthless?

> >What evidence is there that they are separate? Why must they
> >be separate giving that the God Learners lived in the area? Where
> >is the textual evidence for the God Learners identifying these two
> >deities with each other?

>The evidence, as everyone keeps pointing out to you, is that Inora is a

The same evidence which also calls Malia, Velhara goddess in ST/TR and Pamalt etc gods in the prosopaedia? I've covered all that and more at during the thread. Do keep up once in a while.

> >>I don't know who wrote this, but remember that the GLs were
> >>Wizards/Sorcerors

> >The God Learners were the very people that uncovered the
> >three magic world theme ("The God Learners are the ones
> >who organized all Gloranthan magic into three dominant
> >systems." Glorantha Book 1 p24) and so this suggestion
> >that they were witless incompetents doesn't strike me as
> >very satisfactory.

>I suppose that next you'll be suggesting that the ultimate fate of the
>GLs is proof of their ultimate Wisdom and Magical Skill ????
>Clearly, they were witless incompetents, or they wouldn't have been
>wiped out from the face of the lozenge by their own mistakes.

If the GLs were witless incompetents to the degree that you suggest, how on earth did they manage to make a world spanning empire by conquering the Kralori, the Waertagi, the Arkati, the Loskalmi etc?

> >I note that the Abiding Book, which the God Learners
> >caused to be written, has separate spells and blessings
> >for dealing with Gods and Spirits. Given their access
> >to Symbolic Sight, I find the suggestion that they couldn't
> >tell the difference to be absurd.

>The existence of individual spells and pieces of knowledge in any
>historical volume does NOT inevitably mean that all individuals
>associated with the volume in question were Grand Masters in
>interpreting its contents.

But it's a simple thing to do that even a village wizard could do. So how to you expect the God Learners that were in large numbers in both Prax (Feroda and Robcradle) and Heortland (the Zistori) managed to make such a boneheaded error?

> >>The White Princess is an ancient Generting spirit, with a completely
> >>separate mythology IMO.

> >Separate mythology means nothing.



> >Storm Bull and Urox
> >have separate mythologies but they are still the same
> >being.

>In fact, Uroxi and Storm Bull cultists recognize a common Enemy and a
>common mythology, despite the local variants.

They don't have a common mythology.

> >Shargash and Tolat have separate mythologies but
> >mean nothing.

>Shargash and Tolat are not the same entity,

Wrong again.

> >How do you know? Nothing has been written about
> >[Velhara] save for the mention of her in KoS and TR/ST.

>Unpublished materials, and actually quite a lot has been written about
>Velhara, but last I heard Greg hadn't finished thinking about this entity.

You are fooling nobody by referring to unpublished materials. Why don't you be honest and say that you were making shit up?

> >>Maybe, but I can assure you that Inora _is_ a goddess, in HQ terms.

> >On what grounds and on whose authority?

>Greg, Steve.

The very mention of Stevie makes me think your evidence is dubious. I've known him to make complete and utter fuck-ups with the evidence.

>She was almost included with a teensy bit more detail in
>ST, except we determined she had nothing to do with where we thought she
>might belong, and her part in the work was excised.

And unpublished excisions in any gloranthan material aren't worth shit. There's been numerous excisions from the glorantha: intro but relying on them as gospel authority is an exercise in stupidity.

> >>Pavis appears in NG, and Pavis is plainly a god, not a spirit.

> >He appears as a leader, not a spirit.

>He's unlikely to appear as a spirit, because he is NOT a spirit.

But Inora does appear as a spirit in NG, which is my point.

> >Such as?

>The Sun Dome templars and Basmoli Berserkers are theists, as are the
>unicorn Women (they worship Yelorna). There are monotheist Knights on
>the Western border, Zola Fel is both a male god and a female spirit,

Wrong, wrong, wrong. We are talking about Spirit Counters, not any old counter in Nomad Gods. The Basmoli Berserkers are animists from Pamaltela while Zola Fel is and always has been a spirit despite what the French published (which angered Greg).

>Lightning Boy is from the God World,

Nope. Lightning Boy is a spirit - he is not Yavor Lightning.

>the Moon is a Defiant entity,

Nope. The Moon is the Moon is the Moon. Since she has animist aspects, it is that which is appearing in NG.

>so is
>Storm Bull BTW,

Who doesn't appear as a counter in NG.

>the Hound of Corflu is some kind of monster of
>indeterminate nature, various Parts of the Devil, the Avatar of Chaos,
>the Sun Dragon...

None of which are Spirit Counters.

>Undoubtedly you'll nitpick away at that list and prove (in your own mind
>anyway) that you are 100% right, but clearly your contention that all
>"entities" in NG are spirits is a weak one.

I never said that all entities in NG are spirits. What I did say was that because the Inora/White Princess appears as a spirit counter in NG, she is a spirit. Now could you stick with that argument instead of attacking a wholely nonsensical argument?

--Peter Metcalfe            

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