If I may suggest David, if you go a little more for the jugular you
will be as dangerous as Mr Metcalfe in the debate forum that is Immod
HQ. Well done that man!! A hit sir, a palpable hit!
Talk about having yer cake and eating it! Huzzah!
Rob
- In ImmoderateGloranthaQuest_at_yahoogroups.com, David Cake
<dave_at_...> wrote:
>
> At 9:53 AM +0000 10/5/07, Jeff Richard wrote:
> > > Regardless of which it isn't a Vinga vs Ernalda issue, its an
> >> Ernalda vs - the issue is that if Vinga is the only way into
the
> >> Orlanth cult for women (a poor decision in the first place), and
> >> majority of fun characters with interesting stories Greg has
written
> >> about are Orlanthi, then surely if you say being in Vinga makes
you
> >> freakish and odd because you don't belong, what you are really
saying
> >> is female characters that want to act out the the cool stories
in
> >> Glorantha are freakish and odd. Being cool is for men, so all
women
> >> that want to be a part of all those big stories must acknowledge
> >> their freakishness and unfemaleness somehow.
> >
> >The women who want to act out Orlanth's stories are odd. Then
again,
> >men who worship Humakt or Storm Bull are odd. Hell, why don't we
> >whine about all the restrictions on Humakti or Storm Bull
worshipers
> >in Orlanthi society?
>
> Well, are any of those restrictions specifically about adding
> additional sexism to Heortling society, because it was found to be
> lacking in an otherwise popular and playable cult?
> No.
> So those cults would be a different issue then, conflated
> only to sow confusion.
>
> > We've given lots of taboos and restrictions to
> >men and women who worship Death, lots of taboos and restrictions to
> >men who worship the Raging Bull.
>
> Yep.
> And Storm Bull women have the same restrictions as Storm Bull
men.
> If Vinga worshippers had exactly the same restrictions as
> male Storm worshippers, we wouldn't be having the argument.
> Come on Jeff, you know this line of argument isn't going
anywhere.
> No one is upset that Vinga has cult restrictions. Sure, Vinga
> gets the inherited restrictions of Orlanth plus they dress funny
and
> they have the hair, yeah yeah, and some sub-cults have more beyond
> that.
> People are upset that
> 1) new restrictions were added to an already popular and seemingly
> quite well defined cult that changes its nature a fair bit
> 2) that these restrictions seem to serve no purpose other than to
> punish Vinga for daring to step over into the more playable and fun
> side of the gender role divide.
> 3) the way in which its been announced and defended seems more than
a
> little dismissive and contemptuous of anything who like it more the
> old way.
>
> > We even have restrictions on men who
> >worship Ernalda (even if they are simply things like they aren't
part
> >of the fyrd).
>
> Have I mentioned I think Nandan is a dumb idea too? With its
> implication that if you do housework or childcare, then you are
> obviously transgendered. Right. Who could have any problems with
that?
>
> > So, what sort of taboos or other restrictions should
> >exist around a woman who gets to participate in men's secret rites?
>
> Ceasing participation in the womens rites? The normal taboos
> and restrictions associated with Orlanth worship? Why, perhaps even
> some sort of way in which they could be easily distinguished to
> denote their special status?
>
> >Or is Vinga too important to you as a modern Western ideological
> >statement to even play around with that question?
>
> Vinga is, as I thought I made fairly clear, just the last in
> a big trend towards essentialism and enshrining sexist gender roles
> in Glorantha. Which, regardless of how I feel about it
ideologically,
> isn't helping anyones game, or IMO adding much to Glorantha
otherwise.
>
> Cheers
> David
>