Re:AW: Vedr. Re: In Defence Of A Goddess - A

From: David Cake <dave_at_mP5AZHnwxmtUbJqG5gBBWzaFx8tTwXUh7hNvzKsWznWGPIV7SQRF9Vrd7VqiXpqJK11qOtn>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:09:16 +0800

At 9:53 AM +0000 10/5/07, Jeff Richard wrote:
> > Regardless of which it isn't a Vinga vs Ernalda issue, its an
>> Ernalda vs - the issue is that if Vinga is the only way into the
>> Orlanth cult for women (a poor decision in the first place), and
>> majority of fun characters with interesting stories Greg has written
>> about are Orlanthi, then surely if you say being in Vinga makes you
>> freakish and odd because you don't belong, what you are really saying
>> is female characters that want to act out the the cool stories in
>> Glorantha are freakish and odd. Being cool is for men, so all women
>> that want to be a part of all those big stories must acknowledge
>> their freakishness and unfemaleness somehow.
>
>The women who want to act out Orlanth's stories are odd. Then again,
>men who worship Humakt or Storm Bull are odd. Hell, why don't we
>whine about all the restrictions on Humakti or Storm Bull worshipers
>in Orlanthi society?

        Well, are any of those restrictions specifically about adding additional sexism to Heortling society, because it was found to be lacking in an otherwise popular and playable cult?

	No.
	So those cults would be a different issue then, conflated 

only to sow confusion.

> We've given lots of taboos and restrictions to
>men and women who worship Death, lots of taboos and restrictions to
>men who worship the Raging Bull.

	Yep.
	And Storm Bull women have the same restrictions as Storm Bull men.
	If Vinga worshippers had exactly the same restrictions as 
male Storm worshippers, we wouldn't be having the argument.
	Come on Jeff, you know this line of argument isn't going anywhere.
	No one is upset that Vinga has cult restrictions. Sure, Vinga 

gets the inherited restrictions of Orlanth plus they dress funny and they have the hair, yeah yeah, and some sub-cults have more beyond that.

        People are upset that
1) new restrictions were added to an already popular and seemingly quite well defined cult that changes its nature a fair bit 2) that these restrictions seem to serve no purpose other than to punish Vinga for daring to step over into the more playable and fun side of the gender role divide.
3) the way in which its been announced and defended seems more than a little dismissive and contemptuous of anything who like it more the old way.

> We even have restrictions on men who
>worship Ernalda (even if they are simply things like they aren't part
>of the fyrd).

        Have I mentioned I think Nandan is a dumb idea too? With its implication that if you do housework or childcare, then you are obviously transgendered. Right. Who could have any problems with that?

> So, what sort of taboos or other restrictions should
>exist around a woman who gets to participate in men's secret rites?

        Ceasing participation in the womens rites? The normal taboos and restrictions associated with Orlanth worship? Why, perhaps even some sort of way in which they could be easily distinguished to denote their special status?

>Or is Vinga too important to you as a modern Western ideological
>statement to even play around with that question?

        Vinga is, as I thought I made fairly clear, just the last in a big trend towards essentialism and enshrining sexist gender roles in Glorantha. Which, regardless of how I feel about it ideologically, isn't helping anyones game, or IMO adding much to Glorantha otherwise.

	Cheers
		David