Indeed. The problem is that you can come across as then going on to be a self-appointed censor of other peoples creative bursts. Vinga isn't a cult that has emerged in a vacuum - there is a pretty clear position here that you feel your creative bursts overrule John and Janes creative contributions to Vinga. A reasonable sort of censor, perhaps - you quite allow that people might *want* to do things you disagree, and understand that the might want to pursue their deviant desires to play heterosexual Vingans in the privacy of their own homes/games, as long as they understand their place and that they shouldn't do it in public.
> > The fact is Vinga works, and these new insights are just un-fun, un-
>> cool and at best offensive and at worst just plain hurtful to a lot
>> of very nice people. But who cares about that eh?
>
>Just plain hurtful? Man, you need to chill out. These are all
>fictional stories about non-existent beings and people.
Which works both ways. The 'chill out, dude, it doesn't matter' argument is stronger as an argument for the status quo than against it.
> Remember, all
>we have said is that Vinga's cultists are women who magically get to
>perform men's roles - and even participate in men's secret magical
>rites.
Which we were all fine with. I'm not super-thrilled about getting to the point where it was necessary for the cult to do that just to keep the background and peoples games consistent with publications, but its done.
> The only magical consequence of this is that a Vingan might
>experience magical consequences if she gets pregnant - and that
>Vingans are under strong social pressure not to get pregnant
>(especially since the clan might get really pissed off that one of the
>clan's professional thugs decided to take a leave of absence).
Which most of us don't particularly agree with, and which seems to go against the official comments and various creative efforts of other people - all of which you could care less about, it seems.
Just take one step back, say "you know, perhaps pregnancy is more biology than gender role, and perhaps sexual identity isn't the same as gender role either, and perhaps the gods understand these things as human nature', and we can all get along.
And lets face it - your mythic case is weak too. The Heortlings don't care much about anyone sexual preferences at any other point, it seems - yet you insist they care very much for those specific people they already assume to be somewhat outside the normal rules. It relies somewhat on the slightly ridiculous idea that pregnancy itself is special Ernaldan magic (rather than, you know, a human biological function that many Gloranthan females manage without the help of Ernaldan, or specific womens mysteries at all). The mythic justification, extremely unusually, relies on the idea that just this one time reenacting the deeds and trials of the deity is unequivocally bad in the deities own eyes, in stark contrast to the vast majority of Gloranthan mythic practice. In short, its not just popular opinion and practicality that are against it, its also looking pretty hard to support in Gloranthan mythic terms.
In short, it sounds like the theory has a hard time standing up to Occams razor, even before considering it goes against canon AND pisses people off.
And I'm not arguing against the social case as such, but I am arguing that you have overstated the social case by rather an order of magnitude. A major warrior takes a year off due to childbirth ( or illness, or personal crises, or whatever?) - are people going to be pissed? Yes. Is that persons social status cast in some doubt and mind they find themselves looking for different sources of social support? Yes. Are they going to be experiencing some social consequences of their decision for some time to come? Yes. Do all these things fall far short from the usual response to Vingan pregnancy being outlawry, as you suggested? Yes.
> As a
>result, most Vingans either avoid - or are very careful - when they
>have sex with men.
I can cheerily live with 'most Vingans think that avoiding pregnancy is a really good idea for a wide number of social reasons, and have various means to avoid doing so'. I can even also cheerfully live with the idea that homosexual relationships are much more common among Vingans than among other Orlanthi, and that the consistent avoidance of pregnancy is one of the social mechanisms that drive that.
Could you leave it there?
>That's it. That's the un-fun, un-cool, at best offensive and at worst
>hurtful insight. That's our evil sexist destruction of Glorantha.
You've deliberately underrepresented what you originally said on the WoG list. If this represents you toning down your point of view, then fine, but you might want to make that clear.
> > I regularly ignore those anyway. And judging by what I am
>> hearing, I intend to avoid them even more assiduosly!!
>
>If you ignore the Unfinished Works and plan to avoid them, then I
>really don't care what you think about products you have already said
>you won't read.
We can all care about future products designed for more general consumption, and whether they will be compatible with past products such as ST, though.
FWIW, I have every unfinished work so far, and buy every one that comes out. And I intend to buy everything Jeff writes, and I think his works on the Heortlings are very valuable - and have though so since the days Enclosure at least. His (and Gregs) Rastalulfs Saga was a seminal work for me - in a few pages it changed a lot of my ideas about a number of things (Orlanthi heroquesting, Orlanthi politics and history, the whole history of the Lokamayadon era). So I am definitely looking forward to his Heortling History, even if it will probably include a few elements that shit me.
Now, Jeffs opinions on the deeper issues of gender and sexual identity? No, I don't have so much faith in those - but its hardly the sort of issue on which I expect everyone I know to understand the same way I do, or get exposed to as much as I do. So he might get this one wrong, but there is a lot more to Glorantha than this (and I'm cheerily accept that on many issues, Jeff has a far better idea than I do) . Jeffs way of dealing with different conceptions of Gloranthan detail than his? Not so keen on it, but Jeff isn't the ultimate authority as much as he sometimes presents himself as (any more than Peter is). We can live with it.
Cheers
David
Powered by hypermail