The big fun has been here. WOG asked us ot cool it, we did. It will return to WOG.
>In my mind, Vinga
> was always a relatively minor goddess, one of the Thunder Brothers.
>
>Culturally minor. PC major. One of the Thunder Brothers, one of the
War Women. And most important of all, a hearthguard.
> Orlanth used to be open to men and women without a problem. It's
> only recently that gender has played a major parts in membership of
> many different cults.
Yeah, generally agreed to be daft. Creeping essentialism that needs to be addressed.
> As to sexual orientation, there are very few cults that specify
> this. I don't particularly agree that all Vingans are lesbians, but
> they generally hang about in women-only adventuring bands, so some
> might be. Does it really matter?
Jeff assumed they hung about in chief's warbands. You assume they hang about in Ernaldan War Woman bands, even though you say she is a Thunder Brother. By the sources, both views are incorrect, and cover only a small minority of Vingans. Vinga is primarily a Hearthguard. She guards the hearth. She guards the clan. For many it is a temporary calling.
And equally ignored, Vinga is Gateway. Many women, the most talented and determined who wish to become chiefs, lawspeakers, and other important roles join Vinga to enable their progression. This aspect of Vinga has also been ignored in the debate so far.
The entire debate seems to be forgetting Vinga's strong Ernaldan links, and her Gateway cult status.
Off topic, but I see hero bands as a recent historical development, cyclic, a cause and effect of the Hero Wars. Glorantha generally sucks when dealing with historical and social change.
Thanks for this listing. Very helpful.
The list implies that Storm tribe celibacy is for females, even though the Womens Goddess is a fertility goddess, and there was supposedly an equal marriage of Earth and Storm.
> But does it matter?
Nothing mattters, relax and watch the apocalypse. It's on tv. Now. In Hyper-real colour.
To many people, for many reasons, it does.
> If I am a man who wants to worship Ernalda, I can do it through
> Nandan.
So if you like housework you have to join a cult? If a woman picks up a spear she has to join a cult?
This doesn't mean I have to be homosexual, bisexual or
> heterosexual.
But strongly encourages/implied, by recent reasonings. With some very odd, definitely essentialist, and possibly sexist assumptions.
Sure, some nandani take husbands and may have a
> physcial relationship, some don't. Some Vingans take female lovers,
> some don't. Basmoli apparantly have bachelor bands that engage in
> casual homosexuality. So what?
In isolation, no sweat. But to take an existing, well-established mythology and cultus, one of the few opportunities for women players to take on an active, adventuring role, and to load it up with dodgy, 'blame the woman' myths that ignore many of the roles Vinga takes, this is sweat.
There's been a lot of furious backpedalling on the original sweeping claims, so I'm waiting to see what we actually end up with. But taking the original claims at face value..
To conflate contraception with homosexuality is daft. Its sweat.
To suggest forced sex roles for any popular player cult is daft. Its sweat.
To use a 'blame the woman' mythic rationale that ignores and exonorates male culibility is daft. Its sweat.
To tap into the popular sexist strategy of attacking an active woman through aspersions on her 'femininity' and sexuality is daft. Its sweat.
To suggest that one woman's mythic action has 'all time' implications for women is sweat, not to mention patriarchal bullshit. Orlanth seems to be slowly but steadily turning into Yelm. That's sweat.
To arrogantly sweep away a great deal of hard work, both official and GAG, that has gone into making the existing Vinga mythos such a popular one, and suggest replacing it with an ill-thought-out, creeping essentialist bit of fluff that increases Glorantha's reputation as a conservation, boys own, unfriendly-to-women dinosaur is also sweat.
Bad community relations. Bad myth making. Creeping essentialism.
Sweat. :)
>
> Unless you have specific geases baning certain behaviour, I tend to
> think it is permitted, if not always encouraged.
Cults are part of wider cultures. The sort of social isolationism that you're positing is PC and very western.
I can see the
> Yelornan High Priestess tutting about any suggestion of impropriety
> amongst her girls, whilst remembering fondly those pleasant nights
> under canvas.
That guys have no trouble 'seeing' saphic interludes is a big part of the present problem. :)
> So, loosen up, play it how you want to and ignore things that you
> don't like. It's far more fun that way.
See above. I agree by the way. Ignore the stupid bits. But the most pressing issues this situation raises are not about Vinga. They're wider and deeper. And I, for one, care.
I'm sure I could sort a lot of this out over a couple of beers. Unfortunately I'm not at tentcles this year. :(
> Male roleplayers can play straight males, homosexual males, bisexual
> males and asexual males as wel as straight/bisexual/lesbian/asexual
> females.
Can. Not should/must.
>
> It's just a game.
Well then, if its just a game lets talk about genre fatigue and genre stretching. How long do we have to endure tennage seventies stereotypes? God even Marvel updated its universe.
'Its just a game' ignores many of the issues. Conveniently. Believe it or not, after 20 or 30 years of active gaming, promotion and creating, people care. They care for Glorantha, they care for what it means, they care for where it is going.
And believe it oe not, they are adverse to being treated like pieces of shit. (Not on the Immod list of course.. elsewhere.) :)
Hell, I played a bisexual centaur stallion for
> many a year.
Yeah, and I played a virgin vingan. And a celibate, troubled, outsider vingan. And a married female lawspeaker with a precocious son. And a priestess of Gorgorma. And too many duck hueymakts and male humakti (het and homo) to bear contemplating. And the odd baboon. Some of them may have been dykes. No one suggested they *should* be.
Thanks again for the examples list.
[Insert random insult]
Cheers
John
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