> >Unsubstantiated statement. There is no mention of mass emigration from
> >northern Ralios, anywhere in southern Peloria or Dragon Pass overseas.
> Who said anything about mass emigration? All that is needed is
> for the God Learners to take people from Ralios (east and north),
> Fronela, Heortland, Esrolia, Wenelia and Slontos and they've got
> the majority of the barbarian belt covered.
So the God Learners arrive in Umathela, where they find those same troublesome storm worshippers their Seshnegi ancestors ousted from southern Jrustela. And then they went "bingo, let's get more of the useless pagan scum over here"?
> >There was some mention for Slontos. You might be able to contrive a
> >case about Oranor near Akem, but that's nowhere published.
> An argument about absence of evidence is fucking weak when
> when nobody's bothered to write anything about it.
When David bothered to write something about it, it got you "fucking" pigs.
I don't recall David saying anything about there being pigs everywhere from Kolatsfange to Cerngoth.
>>Where did the God Learners get all those farming barbarians from? >>The EWF wasn't selling. Neither the Only Old One, and by the time >>western Kethaela was under GL control, the seas were about to close.
> This is fucking bullshit.
Go have your hobbies. Not mine.
> There's nothing to prevent the EWF or the
> OOO from selling anything to the God Learners.
The EWF was busy aquiring tributary peoples. Selling them makes no sense at all.
The OOO might have been happy to sell some. Strangely enough, Kethaela never was mentioned as a center of slave exports, except under enemy occupation. Should make a normal person think...
> The EWF had plenty
> of troublesome Orlanthi for example and selling them to the God
> Learners as slaves is win-win.
Binding them into their dragon-awakening scheme was what they did well past the time the Closing hit. Should you think they shipped them down by dragonflights afterwards, YGWV.
>>A bit of repetitious cussing.
> Not half as repetitious as filling Umathela and Wenelia with
> pigs in the first place.
The Helerings should have brought or kept sheep, true, but Wenelia without pigs is about like Orlanth without storm.
>>Sheep won't do well in that forest, I suppose, but cattle oughta.
> What happened to goats?
Vadrudi beasts.
> Or sloths? Forest rats? Okapis?
> Manatees? Tinimits? This is Pamaltela, it's supposed to
> be different.
If the Storm Barbarians had been natives, I'd go with that for a general culture. Nothing keeps you, me, or anybody else from writing up Manatee-herding storm folk or Sloth-breeders.
Goats are all over Fonrit. Boring if Umathela has them as main husbandry as well.
Okapi might do. Since goats seem to prosper in mountainous Fonrit, hoof rot appears to be a phenomenon primarily of the Veldt. You'd get a heroic subcult of the Storm God, Farming God or Herd Beast Goddess taming or allying these, and a limited distribution of these. Getting all "sedentary Praxian" (each tribe another herd beast) would be boring, though.
>>> Which only demonstrates that you don't know what the ecological >>> benefit is
>>Sez who?
> Me.
I meant, who with the academic degree to back this claim.
>>> or how the Aldryami mentality works.
>>Ok, I'm no potted plant.
> One would have expected a person with arborists for ancestors
> to have a better understanding of plants
I happen to live on the sea, not in the high Alps, and while my maternal great-grandfathers family name was "Grunwald" (green forest), that was far away too.
I don't mistake you as a vetinarian or cattle nurse just because you have baby cattle in your name.
> and elves than simply treat them like people.
Funnily enough, I don't. I treat them as vile Darwinism in action, not quite as hive-mind non-entities but vicious and competitive when it comes to survival of their seed lines.
>>Umathela was inter-aldryami genocide zone.
> I've never heard of elves using fire as a weapon before
Just because it isn't published...
Not that I was claiming that the elves used it actively, but that they took whatever edge it gave them.
> and they exterminated the Lascerdans for slash-and-burn
> tactics.
in areas which they wanted to claim for themselves. They failed to throw out the barbarian settlers arriving around 650 in the same valleys, though.
You might assume that those barbarians did not slash-and-burn. Makes me wonder how they established their agriculture in the river valleys without fire, though.
Making them horticulturalists occupying ecological niches might be an idea. Pulling something analogous to the "black soil" agriculture of the Amazonas basin might be a better idea, even though it involves -gasp- fire and charcoal.
> Come to think of it, if the elves were comfy
> with the concept of being burned to death then they
> wouldn't be having a beef with the Lunar Empire for
> Rist and Erigia.
There is a substantial difference between pruning and uprooting a forest. (Same goes for burning some stretches of forest that is alive, or entire forest areas that are dead).
But maybe those are too fine distinctions? Mere nuances?
>> Some plants went way over the top to eradicate all others, >> taking the lizard riverfolk with them en passant.
> Nope. The lascerdans were wiped out circa 500 ST _after_
> harmony was reached between the elves around 364 ST.
I recall this as "the last lascerdans".
> Clue: read the sources before finding fault with what I say
> rather than post any old shit that comes to your head.
I find fault with what you write with and without finecombing the sources.
Aldryami interspecies war was nowhere as bad as in the green elf forests of Pamaltela. It does take competitive ecology to get there.
Your "harmony was reached between the elves" means they accepted the status quo the warfare had created (few deciduous trees in Enkloso, few conifers in Vralos), not that those combative species were exterminated (after all they still were useful in fighting the remaining lascerdans).
>>So, if one group of species benefits from what is a catastrophe for >>the rest, what are the odds they don't use it?
> Quite good when its something they are afraid of and that its
> something that their enemies use against them.
Well, elves aren't people (except to some extent, they are). There won't be political parties struggling for the course of an elf forest, but there will be ecological differences that the various groups will somehow settle.
> A eucalypt elf might encourage his enemies to burn down a forest in
> the hope of strengthening the eucalypts therein. But the
> elves as a whole are guided by the song of the forest which
> inhibits them from taking such action.
Yep. Not burn down the entire forest, but only the parts which are fit for such pruning.
>>For a tree, true. For a forest, _not_. Unmitigated growth will lead to >>strangling vines (ficus trees) first smothering the rest of the higher >>trees, then exhaustion of the soil from monoculture. Occasional >>enforced rejuvenation will keep the forest healthy.
> Which the elves can easily accomplish without lighting fires? Or
> are elves lazy with fat-arses in your glorantha?
Maybe the elves are famous tree-fellers in your glorantha. In mine, they are busy keeping the trolls at bay.
>>However, forests come in many stages, and the colonist tree species >>all thrive on the aftermath of forest fires.
> Tell me. When was the last time the Black Forest had a major
> fire?
Who said anything about major fires?
The most recent "catastrophic" events in the Black Forest were hurricanes. The regions hit worst are recovering fine right now, with a healthier mix of species than the previous monocultures.
Forest fires covering a few square kilometers are not that rare. And I was talking about those, not about firestorms like the Chiemgau impact around 350 BC that laid a quarter of modern Bavaria bare. (Quite forested area there, too...)
> In the vicinity of Mt St Helens, there are tons of dead tree
> trunks lying around that were killed by the eruption. But years
> after the eruption, they hadn't burned because it was too wet.
Norway annually has serious forest fires in the Gudbrandsdal. When it is not so wet. (I felt the urge to add an irrelevant factoid...)
>> Unlike Enkloso,
>>Vralos never was reported as "depopulated of aldryami".
> If the God Learners can clear out Enkloso of Aldryami, they
> pretty much would have cleaned out Vralos which is the
> smaller forest and was hit first.
YGMV. It is the green elves of Enkloso who are reported missing, then reappearing with a vengeance.
> >(Even so, I doubt that the God Learners penetrated much deeper than
> >the barbarian human settlements. Certainly never to the Tarien
> >borders.
> Why this doubt? If they could reach Jolar then they could go
> through any elfless forest.
They reached Jolar through the forest-less gap where the Greenwood used to be. Better traveling for horses than trackless forests, or so I am told by riders.
>>And they tend to forget that aldryami seeds can be stored in >>the soil until some releasing event - like a fire - brings them to >>fruition.)
> Going by that logic, Prax must be full of Redwoods while there
> are still forests in Rist and Erigia.
Just you wait...
This is typically Peter comparing apples to pears.
The fire in Prax occurred during the long death, when no seeds could awaken, and all the possibly fertile ash was mindlessly blown away by Storm Bull. Hence the Redwood seeds had no chance to grow.
Erigia has a very active and aggressive forest control, comparable to the western frontier of Fonrit.
Rist is under close agricultural supervision, with any returning seeds weeded out by farmers.
Enkloso has never been burned. The only major clearing (of the Somelz area) in western Enkloso (early Hero Wars) is Mostali-wrought and probably involves metal beasts, poisons etc. as well as fire and axes.
Semi-unrelated question: who was behind the disease that caused the extinction of the Errinoru race?
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