As was pointed out elsewhere, the rules (all flavours of RQ and HW/HQ are explicit that only some members of the "chaotic" races have chaos features). Of course if you are going to define "being a chaotic creature" as a chaos feature then it does become impossible, but also makes for a pretty useless definiton, since you can then argue that any species is chaotic by defining their race as a "chaotic feature"
> Failing that provide an example in glorantha where one culture
> claims something is chaotic and another culture does not.
>
Malia, considered Chaotic when worshipped by Broo, but not when
propriated by Praxians
Trolls and Dragonnewts, considered Krjalki by Westerners but not by
Heortlings
>
> The chaoticness of Malia is not a matter of subjective perception.
> There are two cults of Malia - one worshipped by the Broos and
> one worshipped by the general population of secrets. The cult
> of the Broos is chaotic, the human cult is not.
>
According to Cults of Prax, yes. But since Praxians (and Heortlings) do sometimes propriate Malia, and have a strong antipathy to Chaos, they do need to find a "solution " that differentiates between the foul actions of the chaotic broo, actively worshipping the devil's midwife, and the secretive and slightly shameful actions of their own people.
What makes Malia, as worshipped by Broo, chaotic? It can't *just* be that her worshippers are Broo - Ralakark has Broo Humakti, and no one is arguing that Humakt is chaotic when worshipped by Broo. My feeling is that it is because the Broo worship her not only as Disease, but also as one of the Unholy Trio - of which more later...
> In case people are still having problems with understanding
> what I suggested about Krarsht, I shall offer a concise summary.
>
> Krarsht is a version of Arachne Solara worshipped
originally
> in Pamaltela.
>
> When the Gods War came, Krarsht appeared in Genertela.
>
> Being seen as Alien, she was stomped on by Larnste.
> This created a rift in the cosmos through which chaos
> entered.
>
> Although Larnste rejected chaos, Krarsht did not. She
> sought to control it as she seeks to control everything
> else.
>
> Thus Krarsht's worship and her Krarshtkids in Genertela
> are _tainted_ with chaos in the same way that the
> Telmori are. They are not intrinsically chaotic but
> the taint is detectable and used as evidence that Krarsht
> is a chaos cult.
>
> Relevance to the supposed subjectivity of chaos: none.
>
Thanks for the summary, which was not immediately obvious from your earlier mails. It does, however give us another example of something considered Chaotic in one area (Krashtkids in Genertela) but not another (Krashtkids in Pamaltela)
> >Then there are the creatures that followed the devil (that Jeorg
> >called "Wakboths New Model Chaos")
>
> Except that the Devil is, by and large, a God Learner construct
> woven together out of many different destruction myths. Ogres,
> Broos, Scorpionfolk and Vampires were all chaotic long before
> the God Learners and some chaotic creatures may not have
> even followed a evil destroying god in the great darkness.
>
I know you suggest Jack-o-bears as arising in the Gbaji Wars later (which makes sense to me) - but can you suggest any chaotic creatures that were around (and chaotic) at the Dawn that had not followed an evil destroying god in the great darkness
> For instance the Vadeli willingly collaborated with all these
> creatures during the Great Darkness but they do not register
> as chaotic.
>
Remember this because it will be important in a minute....
> >- Bagog and the Scorpion Men, Thed
> >and the Broo, Cacodemon and the Ogres, Vivamort et al - These
seem,
> >at least to me as beings of a different sort of Chaos.
>
> Different than what?
than the Pre-Dark, "Primal Chaos" chaos. The Pre-dark chaos creatuers always existed, though maybe not "in Glorantha" while the "New Model Chaos" either didn't exist at all, or were not Chaotic until the Great Darkness (whatever that means when there was no concept of time before Dawn). So you can't cure a Gorp of being chaotic, even by Heroquesting, because there has never been any time when a Gorp was not chaotic. You *might* be able to cure an Ogre if you could Heroquest back to the Great Darkness and find a way for it so survive without following cacodemon and turning to canabalism
>
> >In a sort of
> >circular definition they are Chaotic because they followed the
Devil,
> >and they followed the Devil because they were Chaotic.
>
> I disagree they are chaotic because they followed the Devil. There
> is a clear definition of chaos given in Cults of Terror - a
passionate
> and psychic refusal to obey the moral laws of the Cosmos.
Completely different, then from the Vadeli's deliberate refusal to obey the moral laes of the Cosmos. So why is it that one is Chaotic and the other isn't.
But I do think this makes a much better definition of what a Chaotic being is that "A chaotic being is a being that possesses a chotic feature, for instance the chaotic feature of being a chotic being". It's clear and concise and no one can argue with it.
Now all we have to do is agree what the Moral Laws of the Cosmos are, which shouldn't be a problem. The Solars know they all descend from "Obey Authority" and the Orlanthi start with "No one can make you do anything" so we are half way there already...
>
> > (So if Thed were worshipped anywhere (presumably
> >where the Greater Darkenss was not as well known) as Mother of the
> >Broo, but not Mother of the Devil, would those Broo be non-
chaotic?).
>
> Thed's runes are chaos and spirit.
According to the God Learners, who were constructing a monomyth using a lot of Orlanthi mythology, which held that Thed was the Mother of the Devil, a Chaotic entity that nearly destroyed the world in the great Darkness. I am prepared to accept, as a thought experiment, if not as an actual part of Glorantha, a Cult of Thed that is entirely divorced from the Unholy Trio (Thed presumably has no connection with the Solar or Kralorean Devils that you mention earlier...)
> She cannot be worshipped
> in a non-chaotic form. The Broos are intrinsically chaos because
> of their reproductive nature. Feral Broos have no contact with
> Thed or any other deity yet are just as chaotic as wild broos.
I don't think Feral Broos can have "no contact" with Thed, any more than Trolls can have "no contact" with Kygor Litor. Thed is the mother of Broo, so merely being Broo is to be a "lay member" of the cult of Thed. And the Monomyth tells us that Thed was the mother of the Devil as well as the Mother of the Broo, and that she is Chaotic, so her Children, the Broo are chaotic too.
>
> > - Of course persuading anyone else that you are a
> >non-chaotic and perfectly civilised Scorpion Man may prove
difficult
>
> I've never heard of a non-chaotic Scorpion Man before.
Which is exactly my point. *everyone* knows that Scorpion Men are obviously chaotic, so who is going to believe one that claims he isn't? Not having an (obvious) chaos feature is no proof, and I'm sure the Storm Bullies will happily follow your lead that merely being a Scorpion Man is a chaos feature. So a "Chaos Creature" that, on an individual basis, rejects Chaos is cut off both from those of his own kind and from non-chaotic society. Unable to make use of the Power offered by the Chaos cults and unwelcome elsewhere they become easy prey for just about anyone, so it is hardly suprising that they are exceedingly rare to nonexistant.
> Their
> reproductive nature is clearly chaotic.
>
"clearly" because they are a Chaos race, just as Ogre's diets
are "clearly" chaotic, while the Cannibal cult and Uz dining on
sentient beings is "clearly" not.
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