Re: Changed magic in 2nd and 3rd Age

From: donald_at_F_GPQ5obALiqGKpGmwRsoHcJWTHQNjWoDSJk_J7LAJNN-h3ZUzuS4RmfnKFVJX3YO81KT
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:46:07 GMT

In message <> L C writes:
> wrote:

>Really. So all magic requires HQing? Then why was HQing such a big
>discovery? Or are we defining Hero Questing as "any time you cross
>into the hero plane"?

That's the basic definition, yes.

The only magic you can get without HQing is common magic because its source is already in the material world.

On one level HQing has always existed - performing known myths whose origins go back to the beginning of time. Those HQs have changed and varied, generally in small details which is why you get local variations.

The other level is 'experimental' HQing. Going off the path of the known myth to try and achieve something else. Invented by the GLers although few people in the 3rd Age realise that. That's the big deal.

>This is part of the whole bit I've never quite understood in Glorantha.

>A spell is something you learn, right? So it's a formula to access the
>power of a rune.
>So how is that a HeroQuest?

The power of the rune comes from Glorantha via one of the three worlds, via the HeroPlane. If the text you learn from hasn't been linked to an essence source you're just learning meaningless words. Learning a spell from a grimoire is a very controlled and limited HQ.

> >I'm not keen on Peter's analogy of road building.
> >To my mind it is more like mapmaking. The God Learners knew many
> >routes around the Hero Plane and a sorcerer could get magic by
> >following those routes. Without those maps it takes far longer
> >and is far more dangerous to get the same magic.
>So you would say that a modern sorcerer could find a God Learner's
>grimoire and possibly use it as a map to find magic, but they might not
>understand all the allusions and such.
>No fundamental change in the nature of magic, just lost knowledge.

If the modern sorcerer could find a GL grimoire. If he could read it correctly. And if he could find the people to support him performing the magic. Then yes. However the grimoires were all destroyed when the GL Empire fell or have rotted over the last seven hundred years. The knowledge of the codes used by GL sorcerers to write their grimoires died with them. And you are more likely to find people willing to string up anyone practicing GL magic then help them.

> >The Lunars are doing something similar in the 3rd Age with the
> >College of Magic.
>As in they are mapping new paths on the hero plane to magic?

And stealing other cultures magic.

They are possibly the only people with the resources and inclination to get hold of a GL grimoire and try and use it. So far they haven't done so.

> >That is a culture specific view.
>Thing is, I'm not sure of a single culture in Glorantha except the
>Lunars (who we know get struck down by the old ways, right?) that
>doesn't think this.
> >Certainly the Heortlings believe
> >this and probably others do but that's no basis for the assumption
> >that all theists do.
>Well, except for the one where I've never seen a single culture
>presented otherwise. At least among Theists.

There are three theistic cultures where were have any significant information - the Heortlings, the Lunars and the Dara Happens. All the rest exist as outlines.

>The Rokari might all be about retrieving the "true Abiding book",
>uncorrupted by the God Learners, but they do seem to think that the book
>appearance really was the real deal and what they should be emulating.
>It's less clear to me about the rest of the monotheists, they seem to
>also want some original pure approach.
>Maybe there are others.

I'm sure there are offshoots of Malkonism which have all sorts of strange ideas. How common those demanding change are I don't know but they will exist. After all the Carmenians and Spolites have moved a very long way as far as I can see.

> >>The only culture we know that disagrees is the
> >>Lunar one. They believe that change is good and the risks can be
> >>managed.
>And they're wrong in the long run, right?

Are they? KoS is very unclear about why the Empire falls. Certainly Argrath pinches Lunar ideas to defeat them. Where else does 'Temple of the Reaching Storm' come from? (KoS pg. 157)

> >I would suggest that the truth is a lot fuzzier than that. Magic
> >does change, new feats are discovered, new spirits are found, new
> >spells invented. Where those fit reasonably well they remain and
> >eventually become part of the tradition. Of course humans being
> >humans they make mistakes, get too arrogant, etc. The magic blows
> >up in their faces and the survivors blame the experimenters for
> >defying the gods.
>See, I like this interpretation, but it does seem that other than
>messing around the edges, you are "wrong" if you try and change.

No one knows how far you can go before you get it wrong. The tipping point may not even always be the same.

>I realize I am not steeped in Gloranthan lore, but little has disabused
>me of this notion.
> >As an example in the 3rd Age we have the Vingan feat of 'Mile
> >Javlin Throw'. IMG this was invented by a Vingan mercenary in
> >the 2nd Age who was fighting for the God Learners. She copied
> >some God Learner magic which threw massive spears designed to
> >shoot down dragons (or dragon like flying creatures).
>Now see, there's something interesting as well, as you are basically
>describing a theism feat learned from a sorcery spell, which didn't
>seem particularly possible from what I knew.

I see no reason why a Hero could not do it. It's magic which fits a Vingan affinity - combat, specifically spear combat. We know the GLers pinched theistic magic so why should the reverse not be possible?

Donald Oddy


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