I think this discussion would be a lot helped by the use of some modern terminology, particularly the separation between gender and sex.
My interpretation of discussion so far is that the Vingans
and the Nandans
- fully occupy the primary social gender role normally occupied by
the other sex.
- this includes the primary magical role of the other sex. They are
the other sex for magical purposes.
- are biologically still their birth sex, barring extraordinary magic.
- may or may not be psychologically transgendered - that is feel that
they are born into the wrong physical body. Some may, some may just
feel that they are taking on a different role. A women may become a
warrior only as long as there is fighting to be done, a man rear a
child then return to his old life. But for some the role is a
permanent one, because they truly only feel comfortable that way,
because the role reflects their true self. There are a range of
reasons why someone may enter these cults, and both gendered social
roles still allow for a lot of variation in expression and behaviour.
The truly transgendered probably are chosen by Vinga or Nandan at
their initiation, but probably not all who are chosen at their
initiation would be considered transgendered by us (some Vingans or
Nandans may be perfectly happy with their biological equipment, just
not their gendered social role - a tomboy is not necessarily
transgendered).
- and both may have whatever sexual preferences they want, as
Orlanthi society accepts occasional same sex partnerships as a normal
variation for those who DO follow the standard gender roles anyway.
ie while the majority of Orlanthi are heterosexual, Orlanthi society
is not strongly heteronormative and accepts the occasional romantic
relationship between a pair of beardy warriors or a pair of
housewives. Probably members of Vinga or Nandan are much more likely
to be primarily homosexual than other cults - but both cults also
contain members who are primarily heterosexual.
Have I got any of that wrong?
There are plenty of other questions to be asked here, about exactly how such occasional homosexual/bisexual liasons are treated (are they a bit embarrassing, or just as worthy of celebration? Are their some stories of famous homosexual lovers? Are their joyous gay weddings? Is such liasons occasionally celebrated in art or song? Is there an Orlanthi Achilles and Patroclus type story, for example?) but questions about Vinga and Nandan seem more or less answered, and I have to say after previous discussions of this issue, I find this current discussion very acceptable and reasonable.
And of course, this is only about the two major gender roles - social roles beside 'clan warrior/farmer/leader' and 'housewife/matriarch' are mostly not strongly gendered, and the majority of other cults happily accept members of either gender anyway.
IMG the two cults between them probably are somewhere in the 1-3% range of the population? And being a member of one or the other is considered less odd, and less problematic, than being a member of cults like Humakt, Chalana Arroy, Storm Bull, Lhankor Mhy etc (a Vingan or a Nandani mostly still lives with their family on the stead, and does their share of the work, unlike those other cults). Joining one temporarily as an initiated adult is odder, usually implies some dramatic change in circumstance, and for that reason is more notable and gossip worthy. Note how in the sources simply being a Vingan is mostly treated matter of factly, the same as any other cult, but when women become Vingans temporarily, it is noteworthy, because it implies a dramatic need for warriors/violence. There are probably also stories somewhere about clans where many of the men were forced to become Nandans when all the women, but not the children, died somehow.
Cheers
David
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