Maybe, as long as we do not impose modern social concepts on Orlanthi society.
> My interpretation of discussion so far is that the Vingans
> and the Nandans
> - fully occupy the primary social gender role normally occupied by
> the other sex.
> - this includes the primary magical role of the other sex. They are
> the other sex for magical purposes.
Agreed both of these are gender identity.
> - are biologically still their birth sex, barring extraordinary magic.
The Orlanthi are perfectly aware that a small minority of children are born neither male nor female. I'm not sure they bother too much about a child's sex until they are preparing for initiation.
> - may or may not be psychologically transgendered - that is feel that
> they are born into the wrong physical body.
This is a modern concept which developed in a society where everyone is expected to be either male or female. I'm not sure it is meaningful in a society which recognises that some people aren't. Rather than classifying people as transexuals, transgender, etc. I think the Orlanthi classify by cult - Hellerings, Vingans, Nandani.
>Some may, some may just
> feel that they are taking on a different role. A women may become a
> warrior only as long as there is fighting to be done, a man rear a
> child then return to his old life. But for some the role is a
> permanent one, because they truly only feel comfortable that way,
> because the role reflects their true self. There are a range of
> reasons why someone may enter these cults, and both gendered social
> roles still allow for a lot of variation in expression and behaviour.
> The truly transgendered probably are chosen by Vinga or Nandan at
> their initiation, but probably not all who are chosen at their
> initiation would be considered transgendered by us (some Vingans or
> Nandans may be perfectly happy with their biological equipment, just
> not their gendered social role - a tomboy is not necessarily
> transgendered).
Well whatever their biological equipment they are generally stuck with it. Assuming magical sex change is possible it is extremely rare and expensive. I really don't see people turning up at the Chalana Arroy temple asking for a sex change. Although I've heard of a temple in Glamour offering such things.
> - and both may have whatever sexual preferences they want, as
> Orlanthi society accepts occasional same sex partnerships as a normal
> variation for those who DO follow the standard gender roles anyway.
> ie while the majority of Orlanthi are heterosexual, Orlanthi society
> is not strongly heteronormative and accepts the occasional romantic
> relationship between a pair of beardy warriors or a pair of
> housewives. Probably members of Vinga or Nandan are much more likely
> to be primarily homosexual than other cults - but both cults also
> contain members who are primarily heterosexual.
> Have I got any of that wrong?
>
> There are plenty of other questions to be asked here, about
> exactly how such occasional homosexual/bisexual liasons are treated
> (are they a bit embarrassing, or just as worthy of celebration?
I suspect they are treated exactly the same as any other sexual relationship. To the Orlanthi marriage is primarily about raising children for the clan and secondarily property rights. While sex is an important part of maintaining a marriage you don't get married just to have sex. So a woman might marry a Vingan if she needed a protector for her children and there were no suitable men available. Just as a man might marry a Nandani to get a carer for his children. What you won't get is the modern gay marriage with two brides or two grooms. Orlanthi marriage is a minor HQ of the marriage of Orlanth and Ernalda. There will be a bride and groom or the HQ will go astray.
>Are
> their some stories of famous homosexual lovers? Are their joyous gay
> weddings? Is such liasons occasionally celebrated in art or song? Is
> there an Orlanthi Achilles and Patroclus type story, for example?)
You get stories when you have tragedies or comedies. Achilles and Patroclus fits perfectly in Orlanthi society. Great warrior refuses to fight after squabbling with a chief. His friend/lover takes his place and is killed. Great warrior takes vengence on the enemy.
> but questions about Vinga and Nandan seem more or less answered, and
> I have to say after previous discussions of this issue, I find this
> current discussion very acceptable and reasonable.
>
> And of course, this is only about the two major gender roles
> - social roles beside 'clan warrior/farmer/leader' and
> 'housewife/matriarch' are mostly not strongly gendered, and the
> majority of other cults happily accept members of either gender
> anyway.
All the craft skills are gendered, the cults which aren't are fringe activities or overlap subcults of Orlanth or Ernalda. A clan with only followers of Orlanth and Ernalda would function perfectly well.
> IMG the two cults between them probably are somewhere in the
> 1-3% range of the population? And being a member of one or the other
> is considered less odd, and less problematic, than being a member of
> cults like Humakt, Chalana Arroy, Storm Bull, Lhankor Mhy etc (a
> Vingan or a Nandani mostly still lives with their family on the
> stead, and does their share of the work, unlike those other cults).
> Joining one temporarily as an initiated adult is odder, usually
> implies some dramatic change in circumstance, and for that reason is
> more notable and gossip worthy. Note how in the sources simply being
> a Vingan is mostly treated matter of factly, the same as any other
> cult, but when women become Vingans temporarily, it is noteworthy,
> because it implies a dramatic need for warriors/violence. There are
> probably also stories somewhere about clans where many of the men
> were forced to become Nandans when all the women, but not the
> children, died somehow.
Not many because it's Orlanth's duty to protect Ernalda. If the men of a clan have survived when the women haven't something has gone very badly wrong. I think there might be a load of irate mothers-in-law taking the children back home to a clan that can protect them properly.
--
Donald Oddy
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