> >I'm not personally very keen on those descriptions, nor on the use
> >of the word "sophism" as "the" logical worldview.
>
> Nor am I. For a start, the intended interpretation of the
> word sophism Peter is using here hasn't been the primary meaning
> since at least the time of Plato. It thus comes across as rather a
> confusing archaic use of an already obscure word.
I'm not aware that the meaning of the word that Peter is using has ever been anything other than a secondary definition, which doesn't really help either.
The Ancient (primary) meaning of Sophism is hard to render in English, but the Sophists held that truth and understanding were found mostly in language and speech, rather than in ideas or physical reality. Sort of equal parts of linguistics, diplomacy, acting, and public speech (rhetorics).
> At 11:35 PM +0000 21/12/10, julianlord wrote:
> >I would personally treat veneration as a form of meditation, that is
> >to say that you meditate what you know about the Saint, and you are
> >rewarded with insights providing a better understanding of that
> >saint's magic -- among a host of other possible insights not
> >involving magic at all, but moral lessons, insights into the saint's
> >relationship with other saints, Malkion, and the church or order,
> >etc.
>
> That would be a sort of gnostic interpretation - that the
> extra knowledge that adepts etc have is of a direct, spiritual,
> experiential sort. Because otherwise, it would only be necessary for
> somone to come up with the necessary insights once - the saints would
> be the ones who meditate and come up with insights and write them
> down, veneration would consist of reading the words of the saints.
erm, that's not what I was intending there, although that's certainly one possible interpretation, and YG W after all V.
This isn't any mystical form of meditation I wanted to suggest, but rather a more basic form of meditating on the contents of one's knowledge and studies and whichever Lessons of the Day or Week or whatever.
If you like, the students or worshippers, having spent X hours swotting up on their saint(s) and what's known about him/her/them, or maybe just listening to stories of the saints during the morning and evening liturgies, would engage in regular sessions of meditative veneration, where they would mull over what they have learned, and seek to gain practical insights into how the increased knowledge could be turned to practical use in their lives, and in their magic.
I mean meditation aka thinking, rather than meditation aka transcendental mind trips.
> While I personally have some sympathy towards this interpretation
> (and it is sort of borne out by the necessity of direct experience of
> the Essence plane for higher magic) most interpretations of the
> Western world view have implied rather that the special knowledge
> required for higher forms of Western magic was still of an abstract,
> reasoned, sort, capable of being written down, just very complex.
I think that the knowledge required would vary from the dead simple level of the milkmaid praying for blessings at the start of the work day, to the esoteric and complex arcana of the archmages and the ecclesiarchs...
But yes, the Grimoires would always have a potential for more complex readings and analyses, for interested parties...
> My understanding is that the saints discover/create
> particular nodes on the essence plane, and the saints magic is
> accessible only via those nodes - and knowledge of how to access and
> use those nodes ultimately stems from the words and deeds of the
> saints, which must then be studied - and which also means studying
> the virtues and moral teachings of said saint at the same time.
Well, that's certainly how the God Learners described this sort of thing, self-aggrandizing and pretentious nitwits as they were ... :D ... although of course, this is also a remnant and magical consequence of the Arkati tradition of HeroQuesting.
The thing is that there's no real requirement that sources of knowledge should need to obey these sorts of logical rules, facts and events existing independently of theological dogmas and doctrines (which mainly help as a guide to understanding the facts) -- notwithstanding that these views are highly useful for and current among wizards, priests, and sorcerors.
IMO, most ordinary people venerating the saints would have a far simpler relationship with what they know about their saints, which would be quite direct, traditional, and down to earth, rather than pondering the more metaphysical aspects of it all.
Julian Lord
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