Re: Red Goddess and Compromise

From: David Cake <dave_at_1QoLeJfCoQny6gd5UyQjrSDSFnoc_fNiMBv3m2lGWOzWZ37gci6Xznad7E3tZu1Br9TA2UI>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 02:36:20 +0800

On 07/12/2011, at 8:11 AM, Greg Stafford wrote:

> YGWV
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Richard Hayes
> <richard_hayes29_at_P99Xt8Mx4BQDiI2cZvIGNzXrnlf49VzE5AENZfWj2lgnMsdGF8kcMDRZgJJCRHXFrBbpkSSkfKBARCn464G8TdjAK82Z.yahoo.invalid>wrote:
>

>> What is the Illumination of Yelm?
>> 

>
> Those old gods are not Illuminated, nor are they Lunar-influenced
> To say the gods are illuminated is a crisis of vocabulary

	The idea that Yelm, himself, is Illuminated comes specifically from GROY. 
	It certainly isn't Lunar influenced (given the age of GROY), though perhaps early Nysalorian thought. 
	
	When I talk about the Illumination of Yelm, I'm not talking about the general idea that the old gods are Illuminated. Or even caring that much whether it makes sense to talk about Yelm being Illuminated in some objective sense.
	Rather, I am saying that the Dara Happan mythology includes an event that they describe as the Illumination of Yelm. 
	I am sure that various Pelorian philosophers have variously proved (for various values of proved) that the idea of Yelms Illumination is True, False, or just profoundly misunderstood. 
	

Greg Stafford also said, in relevance to something similar
> but cite a source, hell quote it for me! I don't have access to all my
> library right now.
> is my preferred way to deal with it
> Then we will both know what we are talking about
        

	The source for the Illumination of Yelm is GROY pg. 32. 
	Greg, I am not particularly worried about whether or not you think that Illuminated is a useful term for what Yelm experienced here or not - I mean, I'm interested in your ideas about Illumination and mysticism and the nature of the gods, deeply so, but not really interested in diving into trying to pin down evolving ideas into an exact consistent vocabulary that will probably be out of date soon after. 
	I am quite concerned, however, if you believe what GROY says on the matter has changed (or if there is a consistent Gloranthan vocabulary issue, or similar empirical Gloranthan fact at issue here). I WANT some inconsistency and confusion about at least what Gloranthans believe about complex metaphysical issues like Illumination and mysticism, and I really prefer there not to be an objective right and wrong answer to those questions. But I do much prefer it when we can rely on Gloranthan sources like GROY. 

>
> From their emergence from the Great Whatevers, the Great gods have had
> mystical souls (perhaps undiscovered--see their myhthology)
>
> Yelm and the High Gods know what any mystic strives so hard to learn
        

	Yep. 
	But the Yelm cult pretty surely doesn't think that way. I'm sure they believe that Yelm has a deep mystic soul, but not sure they would say the same about Subere, Orlanth, Uleria and other enemy (or at least suspect) Great Gods. 
	Cheers
		David