Roderick:
>You're assuming that the clans pay taxes to the Prince of
Sartar ... Clans pay tribute/taxes to the king of the tribe, the
king of the tribe pays to the throne
Agreed, I was (over) simplifying. The confederations are likely to have agreed taxes in return for the towns and roads built by Sartar. But the confederations may pass some of it to their member tribes, who pass it to the clans. Probably subsumed in the tribal taxes we know about from TR (see Your Clan).
Roderick:
>These taxes will usually be payments made for specific purposes -
for those that have played "Fall of the House of Malan" the War Tax
given to Madblood Malan is such an example.
Surely, a Road Tax, a Bridge Tax, or a Wall Tax is just the same principle.
>Without your Tax Rebate, you have no incentive for the clan to
maintain the road.
That is the reason for the rebate. Look at it from a different direction. I, as King (or whatever), do not expect pay the tax - I expect you to maintain the road. If you cannot, or do not want to pay the tax (you are a war clan who would rather be raiding your neighbours) then you pay taxes for somebody else to fulfil your obligations. It is a formula of "Either a weeks work on the bridge over the Lorthing River each fire season, or two milk cows" form.
Military service was handled under the same system - pay for somebody else, or turn up yourself.
>Granting the taking of tolls was a standard privilege of the
Medieval Royal courts - This Noble had the right to collect tolls
for the upkeep of this bridge, that noble had the right to collect
the Market tolls of this city, etc.
However, Royal Tolls require recognition of the throne's right to grant them. I may not care where my tribal taxes go. I will balk when the guy stops me on the road and asks me for a clack to use the King's Highway. Earlier you were suggesting that the kingdom is a weak affiliation of tribes.
They also fall foul of Orlanth's love of movement and Umath's law that "No one can make you do anything". Sartar was surely into movement and trade. His roads should encourage movement and trade, not hamper it. Tolls restrict movement, they tax free trade - they the work of the Evil Emperor. Note that Argrath`s men depose Mularik because he has the temerity to charge Argrath a toll in Tarsh (much stronger notion of kingdom there).
I suspect that the roads have been good and bad in Sartar's history. There have been strong kings and weak kings. When the clans support the tribes->confederation->kingdom, and work on the roads and bridges, according to obligation, then the roads are in good condition and free of bandits. When they do not, they are not.
The Lunars are a strong administration. They do not want you extorting their merchants whenever thy pass through your tula either. They do want you to pay for the upkeep of their roads. If you are a rebellious tribe they may not trust you to fix the roads - so they ask for the tax instead. Does this p**s the clans off. You bet. They sure as hell do not want to licence armed men extorting money from passer's by, there are enough unlicened ones anyway.
Roderick:
>Tolls can take a percentage of your goods: "You want to pass
through our lands? Hand over the 20th part of everything you've
got".
Agreed.
Roderick:
>Hmm, my take on the roads in Sartar is that they are magical not
only in binding the country together, but also being relatively
impervious to the ravages of time - those Dwarf-built bridges won't
fall down (okay, maybe if a Balrog and a Wizard have a fight on
one...).
Balrog damage not withstanding...
I think we had this debate before, but Sartar's roads aside, after Saronil completes the Jonstown-Boldhome road, future roads are nondwarf assisted (he upsets them).
>Now, a special tax for the magical rituals to maintain the magic of
the roads, I can see *that*.
Probably a good compromise there.
Roderick:
>It's not the King's Peace unless the King is going to show up
demanding wergild for a molested traveller.
Oops, excuse the poetic licence. By the King's peace, here I simply mean suggest that Sartar would have wanted travellers to avoid being molested on their journey. Like a market place or moot, a breach of that peace carries additional penalties. However, yes, as you still have to collect, so it may not help you if you are now 6' under. though our kin might colect on yur behalf. This does not apply just to killings but fistfights following cart-rage incidents etc. However, it might mean that you can kill anyone who you can prove attacked you on the road, without paying wergild.
Ian Cooper
Powered by hypermail