In the Glorious Reascent, Antirius fights ZZ at the hill of gold and is "wounded". This may be a reference to this event. But it could be an allegory to ZZ re-discovering his native origins, and the powers theorof. Antirus I believe is another part of Yelm.
>
>
> > He also
> > animates corpses, which doesn't sound like something that trolls
where
> > doing in hell before the gods war.
>
>
> maybe so, maybe not.
>
>
> > Essentially all of his major powers
> > (feats if you will) he shares in common with gods that are
strangers
> > to hell, but were visitors at one time or another.
>
>
> I.e.- those newcomers acquired these from him from his home, from
the
> Underworld.
>
>
> > For example, Humakt
> > went into the court of silence to gain his power over death, the
uroxi
> > go to hell for the berzerkergang power (recreating maybe the time
when
> > Urox was killed by the devil then brought back to life with new
powers
> > (berzerk)),
>
>
> YGWV. From whence this data, that he acquired berserker powers
after his
> death? For me, he always had these--they were revealed in his
initiation.
Pure speculation, thought it was something that he gained after the devil threw him down to the ground, he was killed, went into hell, gained the berzerker secret from deep within himself, and came back when the earth gave him the power to rise up again and crushed the devil with his new power. But pure speculation.
>
> Vivamort was once (according to some versions) tasked with
> > the job of guarding Death in hell, and last but not least, Yelm
(or
> > portions theorof) entered hell when he died, bringing the fiery
host
> > with him.
> >
> > The second strange thing about him is this whole Hate and
Vengeance
> > aspect of this god. Hatred of what? Vengeance against whom?
>
>
> I answered this already.
>
> In his description he is said to be both a bane to Law AND Chaos.
>
>
> Law and Chaos are not the distinctive opposites.
> Law and Disorder.
> Chaos and Cosmos.
>
> He
> > is part of the "cosmic balance".
>
>
> ?
>
>
> > Sounds like a pretty powerful god,
>
>
> He is. He is primal, an essential aspect of Being.
>
> his origins as written do not suggest why he would be granted such
> > importance
>
>
> No one is granted anything in the Compromise. They will have
already had,
> and manifested, those powers at the moment of Compromise, which
locked them
> in forever.
>
> in the compromise. A minor god
>
>
> Please indicate to me where anything indicates, anywhere, that he
was a
> minor entity?
Well he doesnt seem to have done much until Yelm showed up in hell. And he does have exclusive ownership of any runes.
>
>
> > from hell who followed death
> > into the surface world becomes a cosmic linchpin? Why? Unless he
is
> > more than that.
>
>
> As I've said from the start, he is much more than that. And always
has been.
>
> The third strange thing, one that I could never figure out the
reason
> > for until now, was the Arkat thing. Arkat went on this whole
massive
> > quest to destroy Gbaji, going through successive cults that he
thought
> > would lead him to the power to destroy Gbaji. He started as a
> > brithini, then hrestoli (which led to the court of silence quest),
> > then he jumped over to Orlanth almost certainly, Humakt (he was
said
> > to be the son of humakt!) then finally he became a troll
(what?!!) a
> > karg's son, and finally, his most powerful incarnation was Zorak
> > Zoran, and this is the cult that led him to victory
>
>
> Or perhaps, "victory."
>
>
> > over Gbaji. Why
> > ZZ? What is the secret here. After suffering endless defeats at
the
> > hands of Nysalor, the cult of ZZ proved irresistible.
>
>
> I thought the motivation of his descent, of his devolution, was
apparant.
> Because Arkat decided he had to embrace the most primal, the most
savage,
> the most inhuman trait to triumph over what he perceived as Chaos.
Yes, this makes sense, the blind fury of the death lord is immune to the subtleties of the riddlers.
>
> The secret was multi fold: Where did nysalor hold his court?
Dorastor?
> > Where did the Gbaji wars end? Dorastor. Where did the unholy trio
do
> > their deed? Dorastor.
>
>
> From whence this tidbit, that the Unholy Trio worked in dorastor? I
believe
> I've said it was in the farthest north, at the edge of the world
where haos
> meets cosmos, where the ancient Divine Order had already been
weakened by so
> many other conflicts, destructions and violence.
Ah yes, you have indeed. But it is also written in the original Cults of Terror that the trio was there. I am not holding you to it, of course anything written can be contradicted later, changed, or simply ignored.
>
>
> > Dorastor is the most chaotic part of genertela
> > for a reason.
>
>
> Most of which are, in fact, historical rather than mythical.
>
>
> > It was all still fuzzy for me until I read a small passage in the
> > Cults of Terror that talked about a god called Rashoran. Rashoran
was
> > said to come during the gods war, he wandered around teaching
everyone
> > not to fear Chaos, teaching several others this secret (presumably
> > Humakt.... Chalana arrow... and other cults who don't
automatically
> > exclude chaos from their cult). He tried to teach this to the
Unholy
> > Trio, says one passage, and they killed him and tried to keep the
> > secret to themselves.
>
>
> The Rashoran story has many interpretations. Might the above be
anoher way
> of saying that he was filled with mystic insight, and tried to
share that
> with others?
>
>
> > Presumably, they used his secret as the final
> > ingredient for their plot to bring the devil into the world.
>
>
> A presumption.
Forgive me for quoting the Cults of Terror:
"One god who lived at this time is said to be the last born of the Young Gods. He as called Rashoran, and none know his parentage. At first Rashoran went about calming the frightened gods, teaching them to be unafraid. It is said that of all the cosmos only he did not fear what he did not know. He taught this knowledge to some of the other gods; most of them succumbed to the Darkness without a struggle after learning from Rashoran, though a few seem to have been fortified, such as Humakt and Uleria. Three others found that they were not afraid, and that they could us ehte fears of others to their own ends. One of the first things they did was to destroy Rashoran to keep his secret to themselves. .......who concentrated their forces and wills to create something new....They wove a grat magical ritual of potency far greater than anything before accomplished, for they had discovered the wonder and power of primal chaos......then engaged in their rituals of chaos birth." - Conspiracy of the unholy trio p 13 - Cults of Terror.
>
>
> > Rashoran
> > was slain, in dorastor, by the unholy trio. He of course, went to
> > hell. Now we know who Rashoran is related to.... He is a part of
the
> > disintegrated Yelm, slain by orlanth and broken into many parts.
>
>
> Holy Windstorm, from whence that data?
Something you mentioned in a conversation many years ago. Rashoran is Nysalor's name before time. Red goddess goes to hell and finds Nysalor bound in hell, and "liberates" him. Basically you said that Bijif, a piece of yelm, was Nysalor, and that he was called Rashoran before the broken council brought him back as Nysalor. You may have changed your mind.
>
>
> > Rashoran was Yelm's illuminated side,
>
>
> Holy Earthcalm, from whence that data?
>
>
> > when Yelm was killed he became
> > illuminated,
>
>
> Sorry: nonense. Gods don't "become" illuminated. They either are or
are not,
> by virtue of their creation.
>
> and that part of him manifested as Rashoran (and yes, the
> > Red Goddess is also called Rashorana sometimes.... but that is
another
> > story). Rashoran tried to teach this to others, and then was
abused by
> > the Trio who stole his secret.
> >
> > Thus another part of Yelm was sent screaming into Hell, wounded,
> > betrayed, ambushed, abused, murdered for gain. There he lay, as
the
> > first God to be killed, rotting and ashen in hell. A very pissed
off
> > Rashoran/Yelm sat there, fuming over his fate and his wounds,
which
> > were permanent. The trolls could not face him, they fled before
his
> > power (Fear spell) and they could not get rid of him. After all
he was
> > a problem from hell that had come back to roost (the escape of
Death
> > from Subere). So what do the trolls do? They worship him, they
worship
> > his hatred, and they follow him back to the surface world when
Yelm is
> > resurrected by Time, so that Rashoran can take his VENGEANCE upon
the
> > gods, both of chaos and law, that abused him so.
> > Do you think that perhaps the trolls named him Zorak Zoran as a
> > reference to his name, Ra Shoran? Do you think that maybe the
> > similarity in the names is not coincidence?
>
>
> By that measure, would we beleive that the ancient Terrestial Moon
God named
> Sin was a manifestation of evil, of human wrong doing? Would we
beleive that
> Thor was a god of aches? That Zeus was the god of places where
animals are
> kept in captivity?
>
> And this is why Arkat became Kingtroll Deathlord, he wanted to
destroy
> > Nysalor/Gbaji/Ostentalka, how better to do that then to do it from
> > within, at the spot where he was destroyed in god time. Nysalor's
> > shadow was perhaps Zorak Zoran, another piece of the puzzle that
is Yelm.
>
> Zorak Zoran is how trolls worship Yelm, the burning rage illuminated
> > exiled part of Yelm, but Yelm none the less.
>
>
> > The name, the central role of the cult in the catastrophic Gbjai
wars,
> > the fire powers, the hate and vengeance, the cosmic importance of
the
> > cult. It all fits together.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
>
> That is a wonderful interpretation, and please accept my kudos for
the
> delicious creativity, paradox and delight in it.
> It doesn't fit my understanding.
> And this is the kind of thing that there may well be a Gloranthan
cult or
> phiosophy which beleives this.
> But NIMG.
>
> YGWV.
>
> --
> Greg Stafford
> Game Designer
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Well I hope it was entertaining at least. :)
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