FIRST MAJOR POINT: Think Pantheon.
The Lodril and Oria worshippers do not think in the method that's been implied by most discussion here. They work, live and worship as a group first, and normally don't even think too much about the apparent divisions that the discussion has revealed among us. The collective, the many, the vast "us" (that is always opposed by the "them") exists first. Worship consists of massive public rites, generally fueled by free intoxicants for the masses. Sometimes special rules of behavior occur at these times. At ceremonies a hard working core of priestesses and priests leads everything, but people among the crowd spontaneously become any of the participants and lead their part of the crowd in the rite. Since every known entity of the pantheon attends every ceremony, the crowd might be led to be any deity, spirit or essence known. A majority of those beings participate as a kind of spectator chorus, a background hum of activity and concentration. (Yes, even Yelm at times. Yes, often inspired people take on roles of the other gender—heck, why not? They take on roles of nonhumans!)
Outside of the annual ceremonies, individuals who remain as such inevitably follow professions or roles that are within the existent mythology. Such people are often pitied, because their options in rites are limited. The hot fertile Lodrilites will suffer over the whole winter, and starve at midwinter; while most folk will be numb and sleeping like seeds in winter, and feeding at midwinter on magic food. Worse is to be stuck as any Winter/Dark Lodril: the dark hungry ones suffer every ceremony except the midwinter one.
Lodril is a collective. It is the core masculine power for the teeming masses of Dara Happan peasantry. Oria is the same for the feminine powers.
A certain practicality exists for this pantheon, in that most of the roles are for the beings who guide the commoners on their daily professions or tasks.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Kevin McDonald <kpmcdona_at_tTJvJyDzRlShrDLARpPfXxiB37BXPZZaouQ7cUc_zVgFhZMMfVuWLNySlfVU08vWqt_xan6k-98elgI.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Peter Metcalfe
><metcalph_at_o5Yd7CeeukZMhVylSc2BtTFY45Ks0ans3C-kqfQvUckVU3aaF23JRGQ-v2eWvr-rtChB1RAi2MzqJT_rSVtFFRk0.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> The second major issue is that Turos and Gerendetho maintain
>> their distinction from the larger cult of Lodril. I can only assume
>> that at a God Learned level they are the same cult but that
>> Turos maintains his distinction through his identity as a High
>> God (of Jernotia) which Lodril cannot assimilate.
Yes. With caveats. The mythology of Lodril and Oria "assimilating" is welcoming them to a party. There's normally no conscious effort to assimilate. It happened in mythic times for the pantheon to do so, and thus that's just how it is.
>This subject is of particular interest to me, at least where Turos is
>concerned. The Pelandans don't have much of a sun cult except in the
>remote form of Idovanus (through the impersonal ersonmoda concept).
>Confusingly, KaCharal, "father" of Turos, was said to have placed the
>bright ersoon into the sky. What differences does the lack of a
>strong sun cult make to the role of Turos in myths, rituals and
>Pelandan social order as contrasted with the Lodril cult and Dara
>Happan society? How much of the rulership role does Turos have without a
Yelm analog
>around?
Turos is the Lord. Often Lord of Walls, the urban leader of civilization. The king. The sun is, at best, a distant source of vague stuff.
> Jernotius was the leader of the High Gods, but more as a
>teacher than a ruler. Turos sat in "the Highest Seat" of the Jernotian
>Ring in the apotheosis of Daxdarius myth, but IIRC this was an elected
>position among the High Gods and I also don't know what powers/duties
>were ascribed to the Highest Seat.
It's just a way of saying that (at that time) Turos was the strongest deity among them.
> Idovanus is also a High God - how
>should I view the relationship between the gods of Power (Turos) and
>Order (Idovanus)? Turos is also the God of the Council Staff, but that
>seems less like a king and more like a chairman.
The kingship is not absolute, but is dependent upon the community. They are
actually part of the same thing.
>Obviously, the Pelandans aren't as "top down" as the Dara Happans, but
>they did have the mythic example of High King Gartemirus, which
>appears to have been emulated by Lendarsh and even the Carmanians to a
>degree (the number and choosing of royal wives seems to echo the
>Gartemirus myth).
Gartermrus is a legendary hero who marks a major social change among humans.
It mirrors something of the gods. (Damn I wish I had my book here now! I've
got something written down about this but I will have to defer it now.)
>Were there lasting Dara Happan or Kargzanti (Lendarsh) influences on
>Pelandan solar mythology?
Mostly to keep I far, far away.
>-Kevin McD
--- On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:06 PM, David Dunham <david_at_Yhp0PIWGIrq7SMypKNpDZR7K34MoSXCq17BNde0Z6blhjRO0cnxay4QI4BdEFJnUT0iJcDkWZBS-QbzH.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>Have you discussed Lodril vs Turos? I haven't reviewed all the
>sources, but this has always seemed like regional variation (Dara
>Happa vs Pelanda).
>--
Turos and Gerendetho are examples of local beings whose worship is prominent, and they may or may not be totally separatable from Lodril. They manifest the same kind of power, and along the borders of the regions of their worship they are often confused or combined as Gerendetho Lodril, etc. Analogues exist nearby—the Red King is the city-founder in the Dara Happan regions, and there is Goat Lodril everywhere in Dara Happa that goats are raised. In reality I cannot overstate the magnitude of local variations. These entities like Gerendetho or Turos that are widely known are exceptional, when measured among the vast crowds of village protectors, local bush and tree and creek beings, the multitude of grain seeds, fish and gophers and so on. On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM, bryan_thx <bethexton_at_Ab-_Kn8_1OoCw-KVMjH2HyJ9t8KpynckvP6xyKRIYnmn6jwasSfMr9IiXpS69I5XafNO33hTocXryw.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>Amongst his other titles/roles, I seem to recall that Lodril is
>something like "Lord of the fourth Hell." This underworld nature has
>been mentioned in this thread before.
>
>I'm wondering what, if any, effect this has on the main part of the
>cult?
The effect on the pantheon is that this guy oversees the winter rites. And they know he's not the worst of the bad guys, and he is a carnivore so he saves most of these sleeping seeds (uses them as bait, actually).
>That is, is the underworld aspect mostly a separate aspect, that most
>people don't do more than give occasional prayer towards? Or does it
>change the nature of the cult, compared to that of most gods? After
>all, all the gods ended up in the underworld eventually, but that part
>of their nature does not seem to have particular impact on most of them.
Actually, no. The time in the Underworld for every deity that was there is significant to its mythology and core secrets of existence. But that's a different subject.
>On the other hand, Lodril went there sooner, and stayed more
>voluntarily I understand properly, and even learned to exert his power
>and will there, to a degree that most did not from what I've read. I
>suppose that the `monster man' side of the cult is one reflection of
>this (I'm not sure from where, but I have the impression that in the
>`fourth hell' he rules over monsters).
Yep, and the dead. Or rather, HIS dead.
>But also the hells are generally areas of mixed magic, if I understand
>properly. Most people in Glorantha use some degree of mixed magic
>anyway, but I wonder if Lodril would end up the cult itself having any
>more mixed nature. Either some `sub-cults' (or whatever you want to
>call them) learning other types of magic, or some groups who reach
>Lodril through non-sacrificial worship, perhaps without as much
>difficulty as typical misplaced worship?
Most people learn very little magic, save for a few cantrips to do their daily job. They have no knowledge of different Otherworlds and use whatever they are taught. Very, very few are even initiated. They all know various types of magic. Totally mixed.
>---
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Peter Metcalfe < metcalph_at_o5Yd7CeeukZMhVylSc2BtTFY45Ks0ans3C-kqfQvUckVU3aaF23JRGQ-v2eWvr-rtChB1RAi2MzqJT_rSVtFFRk0.yahoo.invalid> wrote: At 07:38 a.m. 13/02/2009, you wrote:
>>Amongst his other titles/roles, I seem to recall that Lodril is
>>something like "Lord of the fourth Hell." This underworld nature has
>>been mentioned in this thread before.
>The Lord of the Fourth Hell is Deshkorgos aka Monster Man.
>Lodril's underworld aspect proper is Deshlotralas or Deep
>Lodril.
Who are also known in Pelanda, Darsen, Spol, etc. -- Greg Stafford Game Designer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Powered by hypermail