long, to make it easier to follow - especially for other people joining in. Also, sources whenever possible are helpful, as I don't have most of them, so at least I know where to try and hunt some of these things down, should I ever decide to write something, I like to at least viewcanonical continuity before choosing how to use it.
Peter Metcalfe wrote:
>>2) Loskalm: It falls to God Learner rule fairly early. When does it
>>shake itself free?
>
>It's complicated. Loskalm appears to have freed itself in a revolt
>before the Closing but was still cited
cited where?
>as paying tribute to the
>Emperor circa 930 ST. In 940 ST, the Seshnegi attempted to
>retake Fronela with some success as an independent God
>Learner governor is cited as ruling over "Frontem" circa 960 ST.
>There was a major revolt in 980 ST in which King Sigur drove out
>the Seshengi with the aid of Jonat Bigbear and others.
The Closing hits in early 900s, yes? So this was control by land, which of course, was still possible. So the revolt of 980 is about where it starts to really be free of any official God Learner control. I would imagine they also get involved in the general demonization of the God Learners as wrong about everything that goes on.
>>3) Valmark: At some point, Loskalm seems to stretch all the way down the
>>Janube river valley. (Eastpoint) When? Pre-God learners? Post
>>God-learners?
>
>During the God Learner Period until the Carmanians came down and
>kicked ass.
So the God Learners kicked the EWF out of the area completely? The Carmanians then knocked them off while still ostensibly God Learner-y or was that after the GLs had fallen apart? Where is this from, btw?
>>I notice
>>that the Hero Wars Glorantha book puts it in the Kingdom of Valmark,
>>which was once ruled from Galastar.
>
>This is a barbarian kingdom of sorts in the early third age long
>after the Loskalmi have been ousted AFAIK
Although the city is recorded in the second age as already having dual Malkioni and Orlanthi character.
>>I suspect [Galastar has] is a quite different Orlanthi-ism than the
>>Sartarites, of course.
>
>In my opinion, the Galastari worship Orlanth and other storm gods
>(Valind, the Wild Hunter etc) in the far crueller Vadrudi manner.
Hmm... I would definitely posit a larger Valind presence, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be in a more propiatory manner. Mind you, a more violent side could be workable, a stronger embrace of "violence is always an option".
>>4) Junora: It was part of Loskalm at some point, but became
>>independent. It seems it was independent before the Ban, and picked off
>>bits of Southern Loskalm that ended up cut off from the main Kingdom. It
>>is now an independent county,
>
>Junora is really a land containing a number of independent nobles
>rather than an actual county.
I'd still probably put a Count as the big dog who at least took charge during the ban. Obviously, as any kind of unified identity, they only had the 100-odd years of the Ban for it, so I suspect it is a very fragile construct.
>>Considering
>>Loskalm developed its perfect Hrestoli liberation during the Ban, this
>>presumably has a slightly different implementation of the ideals of
>>Hrestol. (I believe this is Reformed vs New Idealist?)
>
>Junora wasn't actually controlled by Snodal and thus missed out
>on the Siglat reformation during the Ban.
Right, that's what I said. The current version of the church in Loskalm was developed in the Ban, and so they wouldn't have it.
>It has an older version
>of Hrestolism but I doubt it's anywhere formalised enough to be
>called a church in its own right - rather the Junoran cities have
>churches that are recognizably Hrestoli but contain some significant
>differences from each other - one might be run by an order of knights,
>another might practice hereditary succession for the nobility etc.
So there was a real fracturing of the religion post-God Learner's in your view. Rokar acts as the grand re-visioning down south, but no one managed to really do that kind of formal organization in Loskalm until the enforced peace of the Ban. Lacking such a visionary in the Junoran cities, it didn't develop a new church.
I'd tend to disagree. The Ban is pretty cataclysmic, I could see someone arguing very strongly that it is punishment from God. Maybe that just never coalesces into a formal church, but does create some very screwed up apocalyptic movements. Mind you, in the up to 40 years since the Ban lifted, that might have diffused a great deal.
>>In fact, I need a better map of the region, as I'm not
>>sure why the Carmanians didn't stop [in Jonatela] instead of fleeing
>>across the sea and mountains to present-day Carmania.
>Wolves. Lots and lots of wolves. Werewolves to be more precise.
>Huge vicious werewolves. With wicked fangs.
Well that's a good reason. So where do these werewolves come from? Was there a long history of werewolves? (Or is this just over the mountain from Telmor or something that I'm not noticing so it is pretty evident there are going to be werewolves everywhere. Is the place still crawling with werewolves?
>>If the Carmanians are an early offshoot of the Talor thread of
>>Malkionism in the West, then Syanoran coming from the Gerlant thread
>>makes for an interesting counterpoint. Perhaps it was adopted to
>>remove/refute Carmanian influence?
>
>I don't think the Syanorans are Gerlanti inspired.
Any reason?
>Rather the Church was established by the Wizard Halwal when he was seeking
>allies during the Sorcerer's War.
OK, What's the Sorcerer's War?
>>6) The Arrolians: They show up in the late 1300s, fleeing Sheng Seleris.
>>They are Lunar, but not Empire. It is unclear to me why they never
>>re-united with the Empire,
>
>For the same reason that Trotskyites never reunited with the Soviet
>Union after Stalin's death - they are splitters.
I was under the impression they were more refugees. You are implying they had a philosophical/political difference of some type before the nomad invasion and so they just took advantage to go off somewhere else and do their own thing?
>When the Lunar Empire disappeared during Sheng's onslaught, the
>Lunars only had a tenous hold over Carmania and Pelanda. One of the
>things they would have done is to encourage traditionalist Carmanians
>to persecute those rabble who decided to flee rather than save the
>Empire.
So this was far more about an internal Lunar split in your opinion.
>>It is unclear whether the three Arrolian cities listed in the HW
>>Glorantha book were separated during the Ban or not. I suspect yes.
>
>They were freed by the ban at different times.
Any dates listed anywhere? That certainly means they were separate.
>>7) Charg: Once EWF, conquered by Carmania during the Age of Empires, now
>>swathed in the Ban. It's fate post-EWF is unclear, although I would
>>assume it was mostly Carmanian and I assume was actually part of Lunar
>Carmania at one point.
>
>It was mainly barbarian riddled.
Kicked off the shackles after the Dragon Kill, perhaps?
>>8) Carmania: They are supposedly Froneleans who refused to submit to the
>>Godlearners. Since the Godlearners were in charge in the west, this puts
>>them in Loskalm or as perhaps from one of the Janube City States. I
>>think Nick Brooke made them from Jorri and the remnants of a routed
>>army. How Hrestoli were they?
>
>Hrestolism is really a spiritual practice rather than a formal church in
>its own right.
Thus the idea that ALL churches in the first age or two were "hrestoli" in some way. I recall there being lots of fractured elements pre-Abiding book, and presumably after the fall of the middle sea empire, there is another fracture.
>That the ancestors of the Carmanians practiced Hrestolism
>does not mean they practiced it to the extent that the Loskalmi now do
Well, no one did, really, right?
>or even made it part of the government.
Good point. I suppose the relationship of priest/wizard/lord varied a fair bit (and still does).
LC
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