Can you expnd on that?
Todd Gardiner:
>
> Again, this is a semantic disagreement. As a non-Glorantha (and a
> non-mystic) these effects fall under my gamer definition of "magic".
>
> As in: Things people cannot do in the real world, no matter how
> skilled they are.
Theist, animist and sorcerous magic come from the three Otherworlds, but there is no mystic otherworld.
> > So for the but... You cannot do magic with mysticism, but you
> > can refute both physical (cold, sword blows, gravity) and
> > non-physical effects (despair, magic). On the surface this
> > can look a lot like magic, but it isn't, and it cannot be
> > used actively, it is always a passive side effect.
> >
>
> By the way, I sure hope that "Refute Gravity" can, in fact, be used
> actively, rather than a constant passive effect... ;-)
What? No meditating, cross-legged monks floating a meter above the ground?
The passive use can of course be helpful if the mystic falls off a cliff, but using it actively to levitate to the top of the cliff is a bad idea as it sets you back in your quest for the ultimate.
> Lastly, as part of the process of teaching novices, mystics may have
> to utilize their mastery of mysticism as a demonstration. Either as a
> demonstration to their tutor that one is ready for the next step along
> the path, or as a demonstration to students that their efforts will
> result in a different state of being, thus they should give it all of
> their efforts. There are many mythic references to this, from Star
> Wars to yoga traditions to the EWF. So it might be unfair to say
> "never" in the arguments you make.
Almost never? It is a great sacrifice to set yourself back for years just in order to demonstrate somethin. And the bigshot EWF mystic who used his powers ended up in Hell for it.
But, this is quite unlikely to figure in game play as a "Pure" mystic would be an insanely boring player hero. Fortunately there are less pure mystic cults which do give you actual magic in addition to the passive mystic refutation (at the prize of slower progress towards the ultimate).
See Vai Madar Sa in the Teshnos chaper of HQ1 for an example.
Peter Metcalfe:
>
> > Do people in that culture have the Infinity rune themselves, thus
> allowing
> > access to magic for the infinity rune if they initiate to these
> gods?
>
> Acquiring the Infinity Rune in my opinion is like achieving unity with
> the All as per ILH-2.
I agree.
> > So some
> > sort of magic has to be coming to the population to withstand the
> rigors of
> > a very hostile and magical Glorantha. Which brings us back to the
> > "practical" rune description of the gods in their pantheon.
>
> In my opinion, the Vithelan way has two modes of worship (three if you
> count the mystics).
>
> Low worship is the worship given to the antigods and the small gods.
> Most of the Parloth (the Gods) receive worshipped in this matter and
> give their worshippers affinities, spells or charms depending on the
> method of worship used (Martalak, Festanur etc). The mystics view this
> as an error. The High Gods do not provide low magic.
>
> High worship is the worship given to the Gods and High Gods
> (Avanparloth). Worship is performed through the rites of Chaquandarath
> or through desire (Yothenara). Rather receive magic, what the
> worshipper receives is more like a mental state (like illumination)
> that
> allows him insight into various wordly events. This practice is
> endorsed as acceptable by the mystics.
Very well put. High worship is also how the Gods worship the High Gods.
> I think the majority of worship in Vithela is in the low form (like say
> 80%) and only a minority of Vithelans will worship the Vithelan deities
> in the high form.
I think it is fewer than that. High worship is extremely difficult. We know it exists in Hanfarador, but in my Glorantha, the high temple of Vith and Laraloori in Hanfarador is thought to be the last place where the full rites as described in the Yederjalif are still known performed.
At the beginning of the Hero Wars, Dech Oru destroys the temple and high worship is thought to be lost. Desperate heroes (the players) have to go to the farthest east with the Sendereven to find a fabled island beyond the Ferezed Deeps.
> >> The question is what runes would they have in the HQ2.0/God Learner
> >> scheme of things.
>
> > That is ideal, but perhaps not feasible. I don't have HQ2 yet,
> > but I understand that the core rune set is quite limited. And,
> > the God Learners and the Vithelan had rather little influence
> > on each other.
>
> It matters not whether the God Learners had any influence on the
> Vithelans. The Romans had very little influence on the development of
> the Chinese language(s) throughout history yet we can still write down
> chinese words in the latin alphabet.
Interesting analogy as it is notoriously difficult to transcribe chinese with latin letters.
> The Parloth are going to be mostly two rune deities and you are already
> determining one of them to be the cosmic order rune? That doesn't
> strike me as being practical.
No, I assumed the Parloth have one or two runes plus the limited cosmic order.
> >> In which case it's integral to the Pantheon and is not something
> that
> >> should be specifically had by each and every deity within that
> pantheon.
>
> > Why not? Runes are the preferred way to describe the gods,
> > and this is the primary difference between gods and antigods.
>
> Because they are redundant. We do not bother describing Orlanth by
> giving him the theistic rune because we already know he is one. What we
> are interested in describing is the magic that the gods provide to
> their
> worshippers and Cosmic Order doesn't do anything.
As I mentioned before, it is the only rune which helps you toward expanded consciousness.
> >> What's wrong with the Infinity Rune? Vith isn't about teaching
> Cosmic
> >> Order but maintaining consciousness with the ineffable.
>
> > Which I think fits "Cosmic Order" better than Infinity.
>
> But there is no Cosmic Order rune. There is an infinity rune. What is
> wrong with using the Infinity Rune to denote Vith's Transcendent Nature?
Nothing wrong at all, that sounds quite right. But the cosmic order is not the same as transcendent nature. It is the rules and laws you must abide by and uphold in order for the world to reach transcendent nature.
Anyway, I won't convince you there is a suitable rune and you won't convince me there isn't.
/Nils W
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