Re: The origin of Ogres. from Richard Hayes on 2011-11-29 (World of Glorantha)

From: Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_But3OH5HPRAoWNDMuINgnvAHqFXyHOSecRihfHmAxrrZX914_bLQqTl_DFXI>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:09:22 +0000 (GMT)

Is it Thed's decision to become the Goddess of Rape (and thereby willingly to identify with an act associated with Chaos) which tainted her with Chaos (though that probably was not her intention at the time), or did Thed become the Goddess of Rape first, and choose Chaos by some other act at a 'later date'?
Indeed if Thed became the Goddess of Rape first and a goddess/great spirit of Chaos later, maybe rape is associated with Chaos now because the Goddess of Rape is also Chaotic, rather than because rape would be Chaotic in any event?

Alternatively is the myth that establishes the strongest link between Chaos and rape actually Ragnaglar's Rape of Thed rather than anything Thed does later as Goddess of Rape? My hypothesis is this:	* Ragnaglar was Chaotic already; and 
	* He was a rapist; and 
	* By this act he also pushed Thed down the slippery slope to Chaos

Richard Hayes

From: Paul King <paul_at_I_4Ez7ErFKF2ZsiF-HJBpHQR-HDBJt6-MhJ46Bd47uF45sNFfWcRcJmZo0xe3v6FFLm6y-e841P32iMY.yahoo.invalid> To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 16:01
Subject: Re: The origin of Ogres.

On 29 Nov 2011, at 15:35, simon_hibbs2 wrote:

>
>
> Ok. I think that in the same vein that accidentally dropping a stone on your father's head is unintentional manslaughter while deliberately doing so is premeditated murder. At some level they're both still patricide though. You're still in big trouble with the gods. Peter's right on this.

Intent is not the issue that I am getting at. My point is the importance of myth. Follow the right mythic pattern and you get the consequence from that myth, not a consequence from some other myth that happens to include similar acts. There must be some reason that kinslaying is more strongly associated with bringing Chaos in Orlanthi cultures than others. And that is not possible if it is just the act itself - there must be something more.

>
> Not dodgy, distracting and meaningless. You can't construct an argument based on the temporal relationship between things that have no actual meaningful temporal relationship. That aspect of the story is just a side effect of translating the mythic facts into something more easily intelligible to mortal minds.
>

I think that you are going too far here. The Godtime is not SIMPLY everything mashed together everything happening at once - it's rather more complicated than that. It is possible to travel to both the Green Age and the Storm Age and they are distinct, even if the distinction is not temporal. Myths give us sequences of events. HeroQuests are experienced as sequences of events.

Thus I say that in the Godtime there is a place where Thed is not the Goddess of Rape, just the victim of Ragnaglar's lust.

There is a place in the Godtime where Thed is Goddess of Rape and not yet Chaotic.

If these things were not true, it would not be possible to experience the myths of Thed as HeroQuests (not that I think that many people would want to !)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]