On 18/01/2013, at 6:50 PM, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...> wrote:
> On 1/18/2013 10:34 PM, David Cake wrote:
>> Are Dara Happan Phalanxes are more like Greek hoplites (big shield and 1 H Spear, fighting in a tight shield wall), or like Macedonian Phalangites (smaller shield, 2H spear, less of a tight shield wall but more spear points presented to enemy)?
Definitely agree with you on the Sun Dome Templars. And it could well be that the Macedonian style developed only in the first age in Dara Happa, either during the various First Council period wars or later, and popularised by the Daysenarus cult. The other great strength of the Daysenarus cult (or at least, the Sun Domers) is that, despite the fame of the armoured phalanx formation, they have several different styles of warrior that probably train together - they've always been known for cavalry and missile use as well >> This was discussed on the digest some years ago - one suggestion was that the Pelandans (Daxdarius) developed the phalanx (and still use the 1H spear style), the Dara Happans (Urvairainus) improved on it, as a result of their having more experience with/need to fight cavalry.
I'm not entirely clear on the fighting style of the Ram People.
> What he invented was
> a disciplined formation - the Sunstand - against the Ram People.
Absolutely - but the same source says two handed spears and javelins were their equipment, which doesn't make a lot of sense really. If you aren't in a phalanx (and the sun stand really isn't a phalanx at all), the long spear really isn't that great a weapon (too easy to get inside its reach), so setting it against cavalry seems one of the few good justifications for it.
> The
> Extra Long Spears came later in the Storm Age, I think but who invented
> them is unclear.
Are distinguishing between two handed spears and sarissa here? Because I'm not sure that is a real distinction. If sarissa came after Urvairainus, I'd put it forward to historical times.
> Nobody fights in the Urvarinus equipment anymore.
I don't think Urvairainus equpment would be completely discarded, but it may be that its function is largely ceremonial. The javelins etc might be retained if >> Sun County etc has them using 2H spear and Hoplite shield - is this plausible, my understanding is the Macdemonian style normally used a smaller shield?
Yes, the 'Shield Push' game implies the Greek style, when they are clearly described as using the Macedonian, with sarissa etc.
>> How plausible is it that troops trained to fight with one form in a phalanx also fight in the other? Particularly, presumably they are trained to fight both in tight formation on the battlefield, but presumably they are also trained to fight as individuals in other circumstances.
Though Macedonian sarissas came in two piece and were combined before battle, so presumably using the front half is effectively a short spear. The two different forms of shield is harder to explain.
Though I think a more plausible answer is probably that the Macedonian style still uses a number of 'hypaspist' toops, armed in hoplite style with 1 handed spears, to guard the vulnerable flanks of the sarissa phalanx, so armies that field sarissa troops would also have a smaller number of 1H spear trained hoplites. Whether in Glorantha they are separate units, or separate parts of the same unit, is another question.
> The hoplites would have to
> resort to swords or pointed wooden sticks which reduces their
> effectiveness as hoplites a good deal.
Of course, the hoplites all had swords, and presumably when hoplites were used for other forms of combat besides set piece battles, the sword would often be the primary weapon. Ekdromoi style fighting, for example, where hoplites would leave formation for purposes such as attacking skirmish troops. Hoplites in formation isn't always an effective tactic, especially against skirmish troops (and Glorantha probably has some skirmish troops that are more effective than any terrestrial equivalent, like the Thunder Delta Slingers, so an effective counter to them would be essential).
Cheers
David
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