On 21/01/2013, at 5:13 PM, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_f5c4NqtE4mSrhQCI4S6MQLJz4pvGWXKa3_BA8-nA_sh2NB1pTi0HAaLtGy4JiEDAXTSJ8tJP0BqGuGigwyV-HDvYwPQ.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> On 1/21/2013 4:49 PM, David Cake wrote:
>> On 18/01/2013, at 6:50 PM, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_f5c4NqtE4mSrhQCI4S6MQLJz4pvGWXKa3_BA8-nA_sh2NB1pTi0HAaLtGy4JiEDAXTSJ8tJP0BqGuGigwyV-HDvYwPQ.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Definitely agree with you on the Sun Dome Templars. >> And it could well be that the Macedonian style developed only in the first age in Dara Happa, either during the various First Council period wars or later, and popularised by the Daysenarus cult.
I thought they were a creation of Khordavu, which would make them Dawn era? According to http://moondesignpublications.com/new/imperial_military.html anyway.
>
>> The other great strength of the Daysenarus cult (or at least, the Sun Domers) is that, despite the fame of the armoured phalanx formation, they have several different styles of warrior that probably train together - they've always been known for cavalry and missile use as well
You mean, apart from the Kuschile special sub-cult that teaches riding and horse archery? (I'll grant, light skirmish cavalry not heavy cavalry, by all means, but certainly warriors on horseback) And as for missile weapons, that too has a long history for the cult. Being a master bowman was a requirement for Sun Lord back in RQ3, and bow has always been a cult skill, and still is part of the cults range of abilities (and also in RQ3, all initiates had to have a bow).
> True, Sun County in Prax was told
> to provide cavalry as part of its enfeoffment but that's quite different
> from being known for cavalry.
I think they've always been known for mounted archers as the Kuschile sub-cult. And there has always been a notable link between the Yelmalio cult and horses (even discounting that the Dragon Pass Sun Dome Templars are only a few generations away from being Elmal cultists).
>
>> Are distinguishing between two handed spears and sarissa here? Because I'm not sure that is a real distinction.
Fair enough, two handed spears make some sense if you don't have shields at all.
Though I don't see how you can reconcile this with the Stonewall Phalanxes being from the Anaxial era!
>
>> If sarissa came after Urvairainus, I'd put it forward to historical times.
It has to be invented by someone - if it isn't invented by Urvairainus, why not the Daysenarus cult?
> As a rule of the thumb, the technology or rather the style of the people
> fighting now is pretty much the same as in the Dawn Age and the Storm
> Age.
We have quite a record of military technology changes in historical Dara Happa, and that is one of the most conservative places - Kastok adds cavalry, Elmexdros reforms, Carmanian heavy cavalry.
>> Though I think a more plausible answer is probably that the Macedonian style still uses a number of 'hypaspist' toops, armed in hoplite style with 1 handed spears, to guard the vulnerable flanks of the sarissa phalanx, so armies that field sarissa troops would also have a smaller number of 1H spear trained hoplites. Whether in Glorantha they are separate units, or separate parts of the same unit, is another question.
Perhaps (though it really isn't so much a matter of having elite hyspaspists as having some differently armed troops at the flanks). But I wasn't aware we were talking about just one little place in Prax. Sun County is weird by Sun Dome standards, and fights different enemies mostly.
>> >>> The hoplites would have to >>> resort to swords or pointed wooden sticks which reduces their >>> effectiveness as hoplites a good deal. >> Of course, the hoplites all had swords, and presumably when hoplites were used for other forms of combat besides set piece battles, the sword would often be the primary weapon. Ekdromoi style fighting, for example, where hoplites would leave formation for purposes such as attacking skirmish troops.
I don't know why you are speaking as if 'Sun Dome Templar' means 'only in Prax'. There are 15 of them, most of them in Saird, and the one in Prax is the least typical of all of them. The ekdromoi tactics were developed partly to fight peltasts and light skirmish troops (a category that many Orlanthi troops probably fall into), so for most of the traditional areas for hoplite troops (Sun Dome in Saird, or Dara Happans or Pelandans for that matter) ekdromoi tactics would be useful. But even in Prax, they certainly don't just fight cavalry. They are often hired to fight trolls, for example. Have some troops leave formation to clear skirmishing trollkin, but fight charging trolls in tight formation. And FWIW, if the ekdromoi have 1 H spears they would use that, its only the unwieldy sarissa that they would have to abandon. But even with a sword they are still better equipped than peltasts etc. >> Hoplites in formation isn't always an effective tactic, especially against skirmish troops (and Glorantha probably has some skirmish troops that are more effective than any terrestrial equivalent, like the Thunder Delta Slingers, so an effective counter to them would be essential).
Think Saird, not Prax. I don't think the inhabitants of Sun County are ever likely to have encountered Thunder Delta Slingers, but the inhabitants of Saird probably have.
>
> The best answer is that he does nothing with the Phalanx but sends other
> cavalry (Sables etc) to drive away the Impalas.
Though even if we are talking Sun County in Prax, bear in mind he has mounted archers of his own.
> The Sun Domers are simply incapable of going to war by themselves or
> even defending their own territory by themselves.
> They have survived
> solely by being willing to fight a given nomad tribe and relying on that
> nomad tribe to help out when their own turf gets threatened.
And here was I thinking that most Sun Dome Temples had survived the threat of Praxian Nomads by being located in Saird, far far away.
Though, FWIW, the Templars in Sun County have fortifications, mounted archers, and a lot of missile armed troops. If all they had was Templars, I would agree that they would be unsustainable, but they have other troop types.
Cheers David
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