On 22/01/2013, at 5:51 AM, Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_ybVagpdzUW8FIGvNdKxzIGnAW8Sy-8DHgjfsVvm6sKJHhPpoRIcEmRWmVdEMwEcBFCqm2OJMiQQOeK9MLu8N0Q.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> David sez:
>> while I do think the Sun Dome County has mounted archers etc, >> what is notable is that they don't seem to have any dedicated >> infantry skirmish troops like peltasts, even though such >> troops are generally fielded in support of hoplites, and that >> does make sense. Skirmish infantry are indeed a bad idea in >> Prax.
Perhaps Basmoli might get added to that list. Not very organised or disciplined fighters, though.
> The men-and-a-half are naturally fleet of foot and use missile weapons. They are problably closer to a greek force that has a mix of weapon types than naything else you see in Prax. Fortunately, there are not many of them. Also, note that they usually travel with some group of nomads.
>
> The Morocath fight afoot, and have two advantages. First, they have hide, not skin. That's not enough to shrug off missile combat entirely, but impala arrows aren't as scary for them as they would be for someone else. Second, they tend to stick to territory that is difficult for mounted riders: dense undergrowth, marshy areas, and the like.
>
> The sun domers, though, have none of these advantages. They are normal, slow walkers. They don't really use missle weapons much.
I'd dispute that a bit. The bow is definitely a cult weapon, and a very common one there. Sun County says all their mercenaries are issued with bows in addition to their hand to hand equipment, and their militia have bows too. Sure, they are known for their Templars, but I think they use missile weapons a fair bit, and I think most of their troops can manage a bow. Not saying they are renowned for it or anything (and they would use missile weapons less than groups that specialise in it, like Impala riders), but I think they use missile weapons notably more than, say, average Orlanthi troops, or morocanth. This isn't standard hoplite tactics, but 1) they aren't fighting standard hoplite enemies and 2) phalanxes always needed to be supplemented by other troop types to be viable.
> The more significant reason is the rhinos. The rhino tribe is pretty spread out. They travel in very small groups with clans of other tribes. Their function is specifically to lead a very heavy charge into any enemy formation that gets stuck. Usually, that is due to terrain. If you manage trap a bunch of impala against a cliff, you really want the rhino khan leading your charge into them. (Hey, they're wiry. And they still have a lot of arrows.) If the sun domers had no counter-point to the rhino khans, they would get routed every single time. Imagine facing, on foot, the charge of, say three rhinos with a hord of high llamas right behind them. A phalanx is probably the second-best defense against a rhino charge. (The best one is to run away, which the sun domers can't really do.)
>
I think phalanxes are primarily defensive, yes. They are basically utterly useless as offensive troops against nomads. I think a standard Sun Domer fight vs nomads would be use fortifications as much as possible, use missile weapons from behind your fortifications/cover as much as possible, and when there is a breach in fortifications the nomads will charge at it, and the Sun Domers will try to fill it with hoplites. The other thing that is worth noting is that the Sun Dome Templars in Prax (and elsewhere, for that matter) are mercenaries. They are valued precisely because they are a type of troop that is rare in Prax, and effective in situations where the ubiquitous cavalry aren't. Hoplites are useful to attack fortified territory in the Rubble (especially trolls, who everyone else hates to fight), defend a town, etc. They are also a disciplined fighting force that is unlikely to descend into pillage and rampage, which is a pretty unusual thing in Prax. I think various groups in and around Pavis have been providing steady employment to the Templars pretty much continuously, and this employment is a steady source of both income and political favour to the County as a whole, and so the hoplites are maintained because they have value to groups other than the County itself.
> A further note is that sun county was historically likely to appeal most to the Morocanth. There's a river; there was probably marshy ground before it was thoroughly cultivated. So, another reason they adopted phalanx combat was to fight the morocanth. That's probably less significant today and does not explain why they could survive in that form -- just an original motivation. This might, though, help explain why the Praxian Sun Domers are different from Sun Domers elsehwere (to the extent there is any difference -- I don't know).
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> For MGF, there was a time when it appears that nomads ruled Sun County. IMG, this is because some wise-ass sun dome count decided to trust in the purity of the phalanx and fought a nomad horde without allies covering his flanks. He got the predictable result.
Yep. Phalanxes were historically very vulnerable on the flanks even when fighting other phalanx troops (and peltasts etc). Phalanxes on their own vs nomads would be an unsustainable disaster. And I think relying purely on untrustworthy and unreliable allies (all of whom who could be your enemy next week, and have good reasons to hate you) would be absurdly dubious.
Which is I think the idea that Sun County fields only one kind of troop, always, against both Gloranthan evidence to the contrary and historical precedent, is silly. They use bows, and have some guys trained to fight from horseback. If they didn't field some of these guys, they'd always get cut to ribbons any time they stepped out of fortifications.
Cheers
David
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