On 23/02/2013, at 10:29 AM, Glass <glass_at_...> wrote:
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> [Pique, really, because every time I think we're agreeing, a new door slams. So let's swing this window open wide.]
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> What is the role of "mysticism" in the Moon Design era, especially as it applies to the East? Let's forget everything we think we know -- all the "vestigial" lore -- and focus on the Guide.
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> We know that mysticism is still officially considered a fourth "path to magic" (p. 9):
Which, IMO, means that there is, canonically, magical effects that derive from mysticism, and are not sorcery/spells, animism/charms, or theist. I think this is in conflict with the positions put forward by Peter and Nils?
> "Mysticism: Also called draconic magic or illumination, this method of conceiving magic involves the search for the Unknowable. Mysticism rejects logic and experience, and uses austerities to sheer away the dull realities which daily and cosmic living accrues upon us. The magic provided is inconsequential and typically of no interest to those who study it."
And without wishing to appear a parody of the nitpicking detail obsessed Gloranthan scholar, I think the lack of a comma in that sentence is significant. The magic is considered inconsequential by those who study it, but not considered inconsequential by everyone else. For example, if you only study pure Nysaloran Illumination and don't also mix it with theism, the ability to avoid cult spirits of retribution is clearly inconsequential. And it literally does nothing at all if not leveraged by other practices. But it is clearly not considered an inconsequential magic by everyone. Similarly, if you practice draconic magic, the ability to voluntarily retard ones spiritual progress by involving oneself in inconsequential worldly affairs isn't particularly valuable. But those being destroyed by draconic powers will likely not find it as inconsequential.
> The first thing that jumps out of this is that mysticism per se is still a transcendental approach. No way around that. Gloranthan mysticism means anywhere out of this world. While it does support some magic, the effects are trivial in inner-worldly terms and still most noteworthy as counter-like powers: "and thereby acquire inner strength that allows the greatest among them to defy any of the gods" (p. 46).
Absolutely. Powerful mystic magic happens, but is still subtler than the other forms. The most powerful consists simply of being untouched by other magic. Much other mystic 'magic' consists of doing 'normal' things extraordinarily well. Very useful if that 'normal' thing is martial arts - something that can be very effective if done in a non-magical way, but even more effective if mystic practice means you do it 'perfectly'. This can include developing facilities that normal humans are incapable of doing consistently, usually at the very edge of doable, but that can be enhanced by mystic techniques to practical abilities. And while there is very powerful pure mystic magic manifested occasionally, mystic practice is often used to enhance other magical techniques. I think the power of mystic practice is understated somewhat beyond its actual utility, because it often isn't recognised as magic. Rather, it manifests as doing something else usually well, often indistinguishable from incredibly dedicated training and skill (especially as the practice involves dedicated training). Martial arts is a particularly interesting and important example. It originates in mystic practice, and I think is practiced very widely across most of the East - martial arts is practiced not only by monasteries of dedicated students, but by most professional warriors, and many other people who just think it is a great practice for discipline and health. But martial arts can be practiced in a way that contains no real mystic magic, and probably many many martial arts practitioners have very limited, or non-existent, access to mystic magic. Some of them may combine martial arts with other forms of magic - particularly affinities. To address the semantic debate about magic, I think that much mystic practice (especially, but not only, martial arts) combines effective mystic spiritual practice with the development of abilities that may or may not be considered supernatural, but certainly would be considered practically superhuman, and these abilities are considered incidental to the spiritual goals of the practice. Whether or not these abilities are considered 'magical' doesn't seem all that important an argument to me. If we want to define the abilities developed from this sort of practice (and I'm not just talking straight martial arts here, but also things like mystic practice enhancing other magics, enhanced senses and insight, control of the physical body) as not 'magical', and we want to create a name and rules for this sort of practice and label it 'psuedo-magical', or internally focussed magic, or similar, then fine, we can do that, I just don't see a lot of value in that sort of semantic classification myself, but if it resolves what seems to be an impasse, fine. Similarly, if there is an argument that those forms of magic derive from mystic practice (and still clearly involve meditation, etc), but are not, in themselves, inherently connected to progress towards mystic goals enough to be called mystic magic because they they can still be effectively practiced by the spiritually impure, I'm happy for those either to be considered either hybrid forms or given some other derisive adjective to indicate their impurity. But it doesn't seem particularly useful, for the sake of shared vocabulary, to dispense with the mystic terminology entirely. Much as we still call Lunar sorcerers sorcerers (despite the metaphysical differences in what they are actually manipulating) etc, lets just call those guys 'impure mystics' or 'fallen mystics' or 'false mystics' or 'low mystics' or whatever, and know that they are using some form of mystic derived practice that fails (or is very bad at ) achieving the actual spiritual goal of mysticism, but yields some practical effects that we may as well call magic. What I don't want to see is that we sharpen and restrict our use of the terms mystic and mystic magic to an extremely pure use, and then are left with a whole bunch of superhuman abilities derived from mystic practice that are common across the East, which are clearly related to mysticism somehow but we don't have a good name for. It strikes me as similar in practice to declaring that all theist practitioners that aren't devotees need a different name. I disagree with Peter (presuming I understand his position correctly) that all of these superhuman effects derived from the mystic practice of Sivoli, Darja Danad, etc are simply sorcery, theism or animism mislabelled as mysticism by confused mystics (or even more confused God Learners). I note that the class of effects I am talking about (including both martial arts magic, and Refutation, and a range of other effects) are all already in the RQ6 rules, and labelled Mysticism there. If these end up in the Gloranthan RQ6 material substantially unchanged, how would people feel about that? [noting as a side argument for rules geeks that the current RQ6 Mysticism rules make it possible to create a character that is both able to cast no obvious, overt, clearly magical effects of any kind yet simultaneously possessed of the best, most effective, combat magic in the game.]
> To me, this indicates that showy magic in the Eastern quadrant of the lozenge must derive from other sources, what HQ would call spirits, affinities, spells. That's great. We agree.
Though much of this magic may be hybrid - a combination of other magic with mystic techniques. I think affinities, for example, are in animist magic developed to a high power level mostly by exceptional individuals - hybrid mystic techniques might systematise development of those. Technically the same, often different in practice. Also, the passive magic, the counters and refutations, of mysticism can, on occasion, appear as pretty powerful and/or showy - but usually only when powerful and showy magic is mustered against it. If the attacking powers are sufficiently powerful, then merely not being effected by them is powerful and showy to some extent.
> The text agrees too. Although "mystics concentrated in the eastern lands, especially Kralorela" (p. 94) and "the vast spiritual empire of eastern Genertela clung to the mystic secrets of the universe as being the most important" (p. 101), the modern East presents what we might call a more syncretic landscape.
Yes. The modern East, including Kralorela, the Islands, and Vormain etc, is highly syncretic. Not only is there active use of sorcery, animism, and theist magic, there is also a fair bit of magic that combines mystic techniques with these other forms of magic. Marnadism combines sacrifice to deities with mystic practice, by sacrificing to deities (such as Mairnali or Herespur) who are themselves followers of the mystic ways, and who guide their most dedicated worshippers on a mystic path. The alchemy of Thalurzni and Halisayan presumably is sorcerous, but can achieve mystic goals. Ven Forn was a shaman before he was a sage.
> While "draconic mystics" (p. 46) that fit the transcendental mold are noteworthy in Kralorela, the Kralori pantheon includes "deities, spirits and essences" (p. 319) that interestingly all appear to operate on a sacrificial (theistic) basis (loc. cit.) The state cult "provides little immediate benefit" (p. 46), even to the exarchs, who theoretically "have great draconic powers, but resist using them since to do so would slow their spiritual progress" (p. 44).
Yes, for the most part, pure mystic powers are used only when essential. Other powers (but including 'hybrid' paths that incorporate mystic practice into ) are the day to day.
This doesn't mean that mysticism is used only by great powerful mystics in extremes that threaten the country, though - the same pattern is repeated at many scales. It is also used by less powerful mystics in crises that threaten their life
> Likewise, in the islands, "thousands of deities co-exist under a blanket of common beliefs. Mysticism is commonly known, but mostly ignored" (p. 343).
Yes. Day to day, probably most folk practice theist sacrifice (though there are islands that follow more sorcerous or animist traditions as well). They follow their local Parondpara, the small god of the island, who provides day to day guidance in things like getting food, shelter, relating to the other inhabitants of the island. Of course all this stuff is very important. If they have more specific or unusual needs, like healing, battle magic, a good marriage or attracting the attention of a lover, etc you sacrifice to the appropriate one of the Parloth. But if you have unanswerable spiritual questions, or wish to devote your life to spiritual devotion of some kind, then there are the mystic paths. If you seek guidance on the deep spiritual questions from the priests of the Parloth gods, often they will direct you to seek the wisdom of the Sages - just as their gods did. But the majority of people are content to focus on the questions of the day to day, and are to occupied with the day to day to bother much with mysticism. They know the Sages are wise, and they try, not always successfully, to avoid doing things that would actively retard their spiritual progress (like worshipping antigods, mindless indulgence, aggression and violence). But nor do they have the time to spend their days in meditation or martial arts practice.
> Okay. So we have mysticism that seems to allow, at best, some uh "vestigial" counter-like effects and an East that supports mysticism as the quintessentially "Vithelan" system (again, see p. 101 for the old quadrant theory back in print) but also incorporates sorcerous, theistic and animistic currents for its showy magic. Great. I think we agree and the text agrees with us.
With the mild caveats above, largely agree.
> "Magic is integral to life. It is used, for instance, to deal with criminals. They are not imprisoned, but receive punishment designed to fit the crime and properly humiliate the criminal. For instance, a swaggering bully might be reduced to the size of a cat for a year" (p. 343).
I think in the East many priests, sorcerers, and shamans, compared to their counterparts in the other quadrants, are occupied neither with tending to the highest spiritual values and questions of their flock (those questions can be directed to the Sages), or with the day to day questions of community survival (those are the responsibility of the local Parondpara of the island). They also have a large number of gods, etc focussed on very specific roles. So their role is far more focussed on simply producing effective magic to serve their community in a particular way. So generally, they are pretty good at it, if focussed on a very specific role. So, for example, you might have an East Isles sorcerer who is focussed only on transforming people into other things, and he claims no great spiritual value to this practice, and makes a living from selling spells, and besides those who have practical uses for this magic (such as travelling over difficult obstacles in bird form of similar), the civic authorities may pay him for maintaining long transformations on criminals. I think it is also pretty common for those magicians to incorporate a little mystic practice, and particularly to pursue active practice once they move towards retirement etc, particularly among priests of Mornadic tradition. But most of the time they, just like anyone else, are too busy to spend their lives in meditation or other strenuous practice. And if I might be permitted to once more crassly descend to the level of specific rules - I think it is notable that the Meditation skill introduced in the RQ6 rules is quite mildly useful to absolutely anyone. I think it is widely taught and widely used in the East. But most people don't use it for much, doing it because it is considered the sign of a virtuous life and the practice makes them feel good when they find the time.
> But if the East is the land of mysticism, then either the East has relatively little overt magic (because its mystics are successfully resisting the temptation to indulge their powers and besides, there is no mystic magic system) or it has magic because its mystics are constantly falling off their path.
I think that, while this is largely true, it is a
> The latter route is tantalizingly bizarre and raises all kinds of exciting questions about the sacrificial worship of the antigods, but is probably too esoteric for most modern fans. The former route would both be boring and contradict the Guide. We know the East is crawling with strange and exciting magic.
The practice of 'practicing mystic practice right up until the point where you can get cool powers, then abandoning the path in order to have fun with your cool powers' (technically called Ouangitism, I think) is probably very very rare and unusual, and mostly something for antigod leaders and great villains. The people who actually do this are all individually notorious. It is narratively significant, but I think happens very seldom. And it is a small proportion of the population that actually does serious mystic practice, and (apart from the Exarchs etc) most of them are inconsequential for day to day life, being locked away in seclusion, wandering vagabonds, etc. They are significant in narrative and legend, but mostly don't do much. On the other hand, our games deal with the realms of narrative and legend. So while these guys are very rare, they will appear in our games. On the other hand, I also agree with Peter that the consequences of falling off the mystic path are only very rarely of this nature, especially as most mystic practitioners are nowhere near this level of attainment (and the consequences of failure are similarly of lesser significance). Most people that fall of a mystic path simply either find themselves inadequate to the task due to personal fault, or get distracted by worldly considerations (say, falling in love, or a desperate need for vengeance). They simply fail to progress. Use of their magical abilities may be a spiritual temptation, but it is also possible to use them in practical, yet virtuous, ways that do not overly retard their spiritual progress (such as heroic defence of the monastery, or defeat of antigod loving villains) but do not advance it either. For most, careful active use of their relatively meagre mystic abilities can simply an admission of failure, not a disaster.
> Or the East says it is about mysticism, pays lip service to mysticism, strives to pursue mysticism tomorrow -- and in the here and now works the same systems as the other three quadrants in order to keep worldly affairs moving. You say this. I agree. The Guide says this. Perhaps it could stand to say so more clearly to clear away the vestiges once and for all.
I would add that -
- practices that originates in mystic practice, but may now be somewhat disconnected from it, is common. Particularly martial arts. - the practice of other forms of magic, particularly theism, often has mystic elements scattered over it like a spice. It may not be the bulk of the meal, but it absolutely changes the flavour. Mairnali isn't just a healing goddess that is 'mystic compatible', the mystic elements permeate the practice of the Mairnali religion. - and then, of course, there is dream magic. Originally antigod magic, pure deception, but mystics have found a way to make it mystically valid. Is it mystic magic, or is it antigod magic? Yes.
> The gods are worshipped. The gods provide. All their temples contain mystics. And also priests. Mostly priests.
Or priests that are only slightly mystic.
> Godunya is worshipped. Godunya is. His temple contains mystics. His priesthood is the empire.
Yep. Though we don't know much about Godunya practice either.
Cheers
David
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