> How can you tell if they are failures? Why should they be regarded as failures?
Basically, that's what was Greg's stated intention when this came up in discussions at Bacharach, around the time when the EWF texts became public.
They did not continue the path to union with/dissolution in the Ultimate, or in other terms the path to full dragonhood.
> I (and I hope nobody else) spends their time deciding whether or not the Red Emperor and other prominent Lunars are mystical failures so I don't see the necessity of the applying the exercise to the EWF?
I don't spend any time on deciding the mystic validity of the Lunar Way, or of Nysalor's teachings.
With the EWF, the massive straying from the true path lies behind their downfall, so it matters there.
> And given the Kralori Empire uses a similar system in channeling
> energies of worship to the Emperor, would Godunya then be a failure?
Godunya is one who judged the EWF as failure. The chain of veneration that already existed in Kralorela (apparently inherent in the mandarin-exarch-archexarch hierarchy) may even have been taught to some of the EWF leaders by him. If so, the rough and ready adaptations by the shortcut dragon mystics may haved converted the system into a huge mystical trap.
> I don't see anything in Ingolf's Saga saying that he used his
> draconic powers for self-advancement.
That's not part of the saga, which only deals with Ingolf's downfall. The text about Ingolf's (and Orlaront's) mystical school describes the various steps on the mystical journey, and I read this as using the draconic powers in this context was right and served self-advancement on that mystical path. Using these powers in other ways may have damaged them.
> Practically every failure he had was for the benefit of other
> people, not himself. He even went so far as to propose a
> philosophy that this was good.
And that's his grand delusion. He tried to become a bhodisatva without having completed his journey.
The draconic shapes (and natural weapons of great (not ancestral) dragons) of Burin, Drang, Lorenkargatan and Sun Dragon come from a different path, focussing on such shapes rather than on mystical advancement. Not sure whether that was the same as Immanent Mastery or just a similar method.
>>> I'm also dubious about the thinking that a mystic acquires vast >>> amounts of magical power but does not use it for fear of failure. >>> Human nature being what it is, I would expect about 5% of mystics >>> to crash and burn dramatically. If they had vast magical powers >>> I think the east would be producing a hundred Sheng Selerises in >>> an age rather than just one in 1600 years.
>> Only very few humans get as close to the Ultimate as Sheng, and I don't think there is another failed mystic who persisted through all the transcendent crap while intending to fail spectacularly from the beginning like Sheng.
> Okay. Firstly a little mathematical exercise. How many people are
> there in the instant torture camps? And as a percentage, how many
> screw up really badly each year? Also consider that if one Sheng
> was unlucky to fail as close as he did, then half-Shengs and
> quarter-Shengs should be a lot more common and still be capable of
> doing a heck of a lot of damage.
Provided they manage to escape.
I don't have any statistics about these camps (how many, where situated, what attendance, who runs them), maybe the new chapters in the guide will provide some. As penal institutions, they have competition in exile to Ignorance and outright execution.
Monasteries can be self sufficient or even produce surplus if the monastic community pursues worldly activities, and be it by lay adherents or owned villages. I would still be surprised if even a productive society like the Kralori can afford more than 1 in 1000 people following a true mystic calling, whether in austerity camps, on mountaintop meditation spots or in special classes in the schools for the imperial bureaucracy.
> In addition, I very much doubt that Sheng actually went in
> intending to fail.
Sheng's story does have similarity to Conan the Barbarian. POW put in a place of torture that steeled him, escaping, subduing the empire that did this to him and another empire or two as well.
> That renders his motivation too much of a vanilla villainy. I
> think he was tripped up just as he was about to embrace the
> ultimate by remembering that he hadn't fulfilled his oath to
> stand on the Moon.
Cute... I see him as oath-driven throughout his stay in the camp. And not as a villain, but as a liberator of his people grasping the necessary evils to achieve his goal, maybe overdoing the grasping a bit.
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