> It think it also allows noble practitioners who strive to emulate the One (the White Sun Lords, perhaps?) to contact the Many - to embrace the low, the human and the impure without having their powers destroyed by ritual impurity, for Yelms Justice to embrace the many.
I don't think the White Sun Lords are nobles. The philosophy of the cult "Every Man a Sun" as well as the origins of Emperor Karvanyar indicate a Commoner origin. After Karvanyar's enthronement "the Rabble continued to wield power, and often rioted in the streets and lynched whomever disagreed with their whimsical needs" (Fortunate Succession p79). Karvanyar comes across as a great revolutionary hero (like Napolean) who is tolerated by the Aristocracy and Authorities (like Tallyrand and Fouche) while the going is good and stabbed in the back when the going is not so good.
>
> Dara Happa Stirs presents a different version of these events, but not contradictory - clearly, DHS, even if considered canonical, would only present the events from the point of view of a small group of Karvanyars close supporters.
DHS is not canonical despite its good quality. In particular the Fortunate Succession's depiction of Karvanyar as a legitimate heir of the last non-draconic Emperor is a fiction while I strongly doubt that the Dragon Sun's reign over Dara Happa was in any way illegitimate.
>> IMO then Illumination was originally a mental state
>> of Yelm that
>> spontaneously broke out among the rabble of the Empire and still does.
> I'm doubtful that Illumination was a practice widely pursued prior to Nysalors preaching. It is, of course, possible that individuals might have contacted Rashoran or similar, but I'd think that more likely to be isolated heroquesters etc.
I haven't said a word about practice or the like in the passage you are responding to. Spontaneously means it is occurring *regardless* of what the illuminate-to-be might be doing. Avivath is a thief and a beggar and suddenly he becomes the Avatar of Anitirus? In my opinion, Avivath became Illuminated because a) his condition as one of the lowest of the low was as bad as one of the lost souls in Hell and b) he just happened to catch Yelm's true light.
> One thing mentioned in Lords of Terror (that of course might not still be canon) is that not all Illuminates are capable of teaching or effectively communicating Illumination.
What I am proposing is a source of illumination that is neither taught or communicated but *caught*. Over time, people began to develop ways of learning it and teaching it but that wasn't what I was talking about here.
>
> It is certainly possible that some schools [use their illumination to substitute for other runes], though - there are quite a few. Though it certainly seems likely that chaos would not be tolerated, and I'm not sure Glamours make sense out of a Lunar context.
The power to substitute for other runes comes directly from the Lunar Knowledge "We Are All Us". It isn't a Solar Truth, nor was it taught by Nysalor. If the ability does not make sense out of a Lunar context, then Yelmic Illumination schools shouldn't be having the power at all.
> Draconic powers, mystic in origin as they are, may well be unusually vulnerable to mystic refutation or similar. Whatever the mechanism, effective dragon fighting seems to be a common power.
When I hear the words "mystic refutation" I call for the Crimson Bat. And I am loathe to introduce the "soft spot over the dragon's heart" motif as an excuse for how Dragons can be defeated. Fighting True Dragons should be approached as a story rather than as a combat - a structured contest over several arenas: physical, mental and spiritual. If the hero wins, the dragon goes away for good because to have further contact with the hero would be to compromise its own dragonhood. If the Dragon wins, big gulp.
>
> This ignores the historic intermingling of Umbarism with Nysalorism in Dara Happa - such as the Old Good Shadow.
The Old Good Shadow is the only Nysaloran cult that intermingled with Umbarism and Umbarism is explicitly said not to be Nysaloran. Given that it doesn't come back after its destruction indicates that it is not a common practice. Because Umbarism is so far undefined, I don't see the need to define the Old Good Shadow and they can be safely put to one side for now.
> And I think we can see echoes of [Nysaloran practice] in the Yelmalio cult (presuming that the existing cult practices of the Yelmalio cult might represent the historical echoes of the Daysenarus cult). Meditation, for example. It is true that meditative practice was part of the Solar religion pre Nysalor (at least, as far as I know the Dayzatar seers have been doing it since pre-Dawn times) but it is very unusual as part of a fighting cult. And Yelmalio gifts and geases do include some elements that could resemble ascetic practices.
I don't see meditation as being unusual in terms of a fighting cult and it's only the retired Yelmalions in the towers who meditate to any great extent. Whatever Daysenervus taught, the illuminate aspect is absent from the current cult of Yelmalio.
> Similarly, there are reasons Lokamayadan revers Tarumath, not just encourages Illumination combined with Orlanth worship.
One day Lokamayadon marvelled at his master's ability to ignore the world. A
swarm of big black flies flew into the window and buzzed about him, crawling
on his skin and biting him, even in his eyes and lips, and crawled into his
ears and nose. Nysalor did not react to them at all. At last Lokamayadon
asked what they were.
"Those are the prayers and sacrifices of the unfortunates who worship me,"
said the Master. "They are worthless, just distractions."
That was when Lokamayadon decided o stop sacrificing to Orlanth.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldofGlorantha/message/9056
--Peter Metcalfe
Powered by hypermail