On 14/06/2013, at 7:56 PM, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_quicksilver.net.nz> wrote:
> On 6/14/2013 1:45 AM, David Cake wrote:
>> On 12/06/2013, at 4:00 PM, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_quicksilver.net.nz> wrote: >> It think it also allows noble practitioners who strive to emulate the One (the White Sun Lords, perhaps?) to contact the Many - to embrace the low, the human and the impure without having their powers destroyed by ritual impurity, for Yelms Justice to embrace the many.
A case can certainly be made that (generally contrary to the gist of Dara Happa Stirs, which I agree is non canon despite its general awesomeness) they were not, initially, nobles, and that like Karvanyar himself they rose up from low status (well, Karvanyar was sort of a commoner, though an odd his grandfather was an Emperor). But of course, they are generally called the White Sun Lords once Karvanyar becomes Emperor, and among their number are the immediate household of the Emperor, who obviously, at that point, they are about as noble as it is possible to be. So regardless of its origins, the White Sun Lords path is definitely one that can continue to be practiced as a noble. They are not called Lords for nothing.
> Karvanyar comes across as a great revolutionary hero (like
> Napolean) who is tolerated by the Aristocracy and Authorities (like
> Tallyrand and Fouche) while the going is good and stabbed in the back
> when the going is not so good.
That is true. But Napoleon, despite the revolutionary origins, was clearly a noble who restored many aspects of the traditional nobility while placating the mob. Karvanyar much the same.
>> >> Dara Happa Stirs presents a different version of these events, but not contradictory - clearly, DHS, even if considered canonical, would only present the events from the point of view of a small group of Karvanyars close supporters.
Do you think Karvanyar is not the son of Urvanyar, or that Urvanyar is not the son of Dismanthayar, or that Dismanthuyar was not a legitimate emperor, or that all of this does not add up to him being a legitimate heir to Karvanyar? Because Karvanyar as 'the Poor Woman's Son' is of course an issue of legitimacy, but otherwise it seems straightforward enough.
> while I strongly doubt that
> the Dragon Sun's reign over Dara Happa was in any way illegitimate.
I don't think Dara Happa Stirs tries to represent the reign of the Dragon Emperor as particularly illegitimate, just deeply unpopular with traditionalists - rather, it is only once the dragon itself conveniently shows it rejects true Justice that it becomes vulnerable.
>>> IMO then Illumination was originally a mental state >>> of Yelm that >>> spontaneously broke out among the rabble of the Empire and still does. >> I'm doubtful that Illumination was a practice widely pursued prior to Nysalors preaching. It is, of course, possible that individuals might have contacted Rashoran or similar, but I'd think that more likely to be isolated heroquesters etc.
This all seems a bit circular in its reasoning, though. While Illumination is one explanation for the sudden rise of Avivath to be the Avatar of Antirius, it seems as if the explanation is that Avivath must be be Illuminated because he is able to do this unusual thing, and then the explanation of how Illumination works in the pre-Nysaloran era is based on the assumption that this unusual thing Avivath did demonstrates the mechanism.
And I'll note its more or less explicitly refuted by the 'Current Belief' section, which says Illumination became available to mortals only after Nysalors birth.
>> One thing mentioned in Lords of Terror (that of course might not still be canon) is that not all Illuminates are capable of teaching or effectively communicating Illumination.
Sure, your explanation is that Avivath is a rare (are there others?) example of a pre-Nysaloran mechanism of spontaneous Illumination, but that post-Nysalor Illumination is more often achieved by learning from a teacher. I'm not sure the former mechanism is necessary, but nor do I have an good reason to suggest it isn't true, or any other explanation for Avivaths unusual rise. >> It is certainly possible that some schools [use their illumination to substitute for other runes], though - there are quite a few. Though it certainly seems likely that chaos would not be tolerated, and I'm not sure Glamours make sense out of a Lunar context.
I'll grant it doesn't fit the examples of his teachings we know of.
>> Draconic powers, mystic in origin as they are, may well be unusually vulnerable to mystic refutation or similar. Whatever the mechanism, effective dragon fighting seems to be a common power.
Well, sure, the terminology is clumsy. But the power to not be effected by things does seem to come up again and again, whatever we call it.
> And I am loathe to introduce the "soft spot over the dragon's heart"
> motif as an excuse for how Dragons can be defeated.
Me neither, though I have absolutely no idea at all as to how that relates the mystic refutation concept.
There is not much we do know about the methods used by these groups to fight dragons. I much prefer the model in which dragon slaying magic is able to eliminate the advantages of size and strength etc and engage it on more equal terms, in the Orlanthi (Alakoring vs Drang, etc) mode, but I have no idea if the Yelmic methods are at all similar in their operation.
> Fighting True
> Dragons should be approached as a story rather than as a combat - a
> structured contest over several arenas: physical, mental and spiritual.
> If the hero wins, the dragon goes away for good because to have further
> contact with the hero would be to compromise its own dragonhood. If the
> Dragon wins, big gulp.
More or less.
>> >> This ignores the historic intermingling of Umbarism with Nysalorism in Dara Happa - such as the Old Good Shadow.
It is the only one we know of. Given there are several we know nothing about, and the later condemnation of Illumination as Umbarism, I'm not convinced that the two can be so easily separated. I do think Umbarism and Nysalorism aren't the same thing (Umbarism begins as Dara Happan Spolitism, of course), but there seems ample evidence the two ideas intermingle quite a bit.
> Given that
> it doesn't come back after its destruction indicates that it is not a
> common practice.
The Old Good Shadow doesn't, but Umbarism as associated with Nysalorism keeps returning right up until the Lunars at least.
> Because Umbarism is so far undefined, I don't see the
> need to define the Old Good Shadow and they can be safely put to one
> side for now.
Well, sure, if you'd like. But only for now.
>> And I think we can see echoes of [Nysaloran practice] in the Yelmalio cult (presuming that the existing cult practices of the Yelmalio cult might represent the historical echoes of the Daysenarus cult). Meditation, for example. It is true that meditative practice was part of the Solar religion pre Nysalor (at least, as far as I know the Dayzatar seers have been doing it since pre-Dawn times) but it is very unusual as part of a fighting cult. And Yelmalio gifts and geases do include some elements that could resemble ascetic practices.
Yes, absolutely, the Illuminate aspect is absent from the modern cult. I was suggesting only that modern practices were suggestive. So my vision of the Daysenarus cult assumes that includes meditative practice, and quite likely some ascetic practices. Of course, I have no proof, but it seems plausible, and I've got no reason to think otherwise. >> Similarly, there are reasons Lokamayadan revers Tarumath, not just encourages Illumination combined with Orlanth worship.
Hah! Yes. Perfect story.
Perhaps a better way to put it would be that TarUmath is a way to use the Storm that still makes sense to an Illuminate who rejects worship.
Cheers David
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