On 30/06/2013, at 5:30 PM, David Scott <sciencefish_at_me.com> wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2013, at 05:15, David Cake <dave_at_difference.com.au> wrote:
>
>> There are a few references to shamanic integration in the Guide (eg The High Shamanic Ideal is that a person can ...integrate the proper spirits into his shamanic self...). In Hero Wars: Roleplaying in Glorantha, integration was a process by which an animist magician made a spirit become part of an embodied being, such that the spirit ceased to become an independent entity, and became part of that being, generally granting a magical Talent. Talents are still in HeroQuest 2, but are now regarded as something that are innate, gained in character creation (or birth/childhood), rather than something that can be acquired. Rules for animist magic talk about spirits in Charms, etc, but nothing about Talents, which appear now entirely separate. >> So, if 'integration' is still a thing shamans do, what is it, both in practical, spiritual, and rules terms?
Right - so essentially, shamanic integration is the process of becoming a shaman -- which is interesting as the fetch is now the only sort of spirit remaining in the current conception of animism that is really 'integrated' with the shamanic self rather than being just 'something you have'.
I do think it is interesting that Talents are sort of an oddity, almost a relic, in Heroquest - in earlier editions, there was a defined method of gaining them and they were well understood, now they function the same but are just 'this thing that happens sometimes'.
> Beyond this, becoming a more powerful shaman is not just dependent on having greater spirits helping you. A different state of mind is needed to transcend the boundaries of your tradition's spirit world. This is akin to illumination/enlightenment/transcendence, it's a narrative effect and should be the result of a hard quest, that results in the discovery of the spirit realm beyond the current one, Getting help to do this is very important.
Akin to illumination/enlightenment only in that its primarily a state of mind with mostly narrative effects, do you mean? I'd probably run this as a heroquest (or spirit plane quest) that is a deeper level of initiation. And quite possibly, often this deeper understanding does grant access (perhaps indirectly) to greater powers not granted to lesser shamans - the Soul Winds accessed by great Praxian shamans would perhaps be one example?
BTW, anyone who wants some inspirational fiction about a shamanic path, I very much recommend Who Fears Death, by Nnedi Okorofor. Includes a couple of heroquestish sequences, one to gain her shamanic powers, another that increases them, breaking through to a deeper level. And a long term duel between shamanic enemies, and other good stuff (and also confronting issues like weaponised rape and female genital mutiliation - not an easy read, but an amazing one).
> However:
>
> Interestingly (for me) some real world shaman have access to the next levels from their initiation - it defines their practice. I had the good fortune to work with an Altai shaman some years ago. He was a white shaman of the 12th heaven. As a white shaman he only worked in the upper (sky) world - as opposed to the black shaman who only work in the lower (under) world, and black-white shaman who only work in the middle (inner) world. As a 12th heaven shaman he was a cosmic shaman who had access to the power of the whole cosmos - as he said "like Jesus, buddha and Vishnu". Whereas the shaman of levels 8-11 couldn't access this power. This came to him in his initiation. (levels 1 to 7 of the Cosmos are accessible to everyday people of the tradition). When I asked him what was beyond the 12th level, he said "nothing of course, what is beyond the cosmos for us".
Yes. Glorantha has its own metaphysical rules, and some of them may not match well to real world traditions, though. A good illustration that quite wildly different shamanic paths can be part of the same tradition, though.
Cheers David
Powered by hypermail