>From: Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe_at_cantva.canterbury.ac.nz>
>Unfortunately there are references in the Zero Wane Battles to Lunars
>using massed spells (either the First Battle of Chaos or the Battle of
>the Four Arrows of Light)
Pity, as I couldn't remember any reference to the colleges of magic as such until after the Pentan invasions. My suggestion that these form of organized magicians were a reult of Sheng's ideas was to try and provide a reason for his tremendous successes, and to provide some parallel with one Genghis Khan, about whose abilities we've heard so much lately.
What did Sheng have over the Lunars that allowed him to perfom his "Dance Across Peloria" routine for 60+ years, and to kill the original Red Emperor who is said to be stronger than the later ones? Sheng wasn't a military leader as that's not really a shamanic function; how he united the tribes is unknown, but I suspect was a result of spiritual heroquests that changed or reinterpreted the religion of the Pentans to move them against common enemies.
Sheng may have had huge numbers of Pentans: probably did, as nomadic cultures seem to be able to mobilize a very large proportion of their populations as warriors. However, if the Lunars had the Colleges of Magic at this time, he must have had some other even more powerful magics to balance them, as the Pentans won. The Colleges are usually shown as being an war winning advantage.
He may have just been a magical superhero, though how the Red Emperor eventually beat him is then hard to explain. I liked the concept of him as a great magical innovator as Genghis was a military one, and the ordered Colleges of magic seem to be the only real magical innovation of the third age.
. Furthermore the Carmanians are know to have
>used Chaos
Everyone seems to be willing to use the occasional Chaos monsters as mercernary forces at times (even the Praxians hire broos sometimes). It's the organized acceptance and regular use of it that makes the Lunars so loathed.
>I'm really of the Theory that Daruda actually talked with Sh'hakazeel,
>the Mover of the Heavens and gained the Draconic powers from Him (cf
>the Well of Rising Dragons in Puchai G:CotHW Kralorela).
Well, I suspect the leader of whatever forces were involved may have been called Daruda. The early Kralorelan emperors are so ancient that it's hard to judge what they did; I find the sudden appearance of draconic influences in a previously Solar culture to be more likely a result of an outside invasion than an internal tranformation.
>In fact, I'm groking the theory that the Teachings of Aptanace the
>Sage really envisioned rule by a Council of Sages (ie like the
>Exarchs and the Mandarins).
I'll agree with this.
>labyrinthine bureacracy (makes 'Yes Minister' look like an orderly chain of
>command)
"Yes, Minister" _is_ an orderly chain of command. Sir Humphrey is completely in control of the department, his only problem is the interference of his Minister in a task that his obviously beyond him. :-)
> That is 1455 years as a great empire, a record hardly challenged
>elsewhere.
I think restricting the examples of "great empires" to Rome is a bit limiting. There isn't much competition left; anyone apart from China? How do we define "great"? Duration; area conquered; transmission of culture?
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw_at_magna.com.au>
>Sandy's/Graeme's stuff : Great stuff, but some comments.
>Partly true, IMO. Whilst massed magicians would be useful, they are not
>the primary reason for Lunar military superiority. The reasons can be
>summed up as the professionalism of the Lunar military and the existance
>of a formal career structure for Lunar heroes.
Well, if the Pentans were as professional as the Mongols were (though I doubt they were) there's little room for the Lunars to be more professional. We already have Sandy's opinion that the Lunars aren't as organized as the Romans.
>
>Firstly, Lunar professionalism. An Orlanthi citizen must farm for 80-odd
>percent of their time. Only the 5-10 percent of the population who are
>huscarls or nobility can train for war. A Lunar soldier is just that, and
>can spend a much higher proportion of their time learning their job.
I think you'll find the percentage of the Lunar population who are professional soldiers is a lot less than 5-10%. The Roman legions equaled about 350 000 out of a total pop. of 50 million or so. Civilized empires seem to field fewer troops as a proportion of the whole than barbarian or nomad cultures, rather than more.
Each regiment would have a
>guardian spirit - a sort of regimental godlet - that would help glue the
>unit together as a unit.
According to KoS, it's this regimental godlet/wyter aspect that seems to be what Argrath taught to the Sartarites, not just that for magician units.
>The Lunar Empire starts training it's heroes when they are ten.
As far as I can tell, the Lunars don't have any more heroes per head of population than the other cultures. Jar-Eel seems to have been a hero from birth, as an incarnation of the red Goddess, rather than training to be one. I don't agree with your idea I'm afraid.
>Similarly, everyone knows the Army is invincible, so it is, until it
>isnt, then *suddenly* oh Gods, *SHENG SELERIS AND FIFTY MILLION RAVENING
>HORSEMEN* *RAMPAGING ARGRATH WITH ALL THE SPIRITS OF HELL* - these things
>are believed, and therefore become true.
But if the Army is believed to be invincible, and belief makes this true, it can't be beaten in the first place, can it? All your saying is that the belief of a society supports it against it's enemies, which is as true of the Pentans and the Sartarites as the Lunars.
>From: Ken9Jack9_at_aol.com
> What I'm getting at is that while one could easily picture a regiment
>of Yelm priests throwing the Mother of All Sunspears, shamans strike me as
>rather more individualistic in outlook and mode.
Not so, if the model described in KoS is to be believed. There, the units gain power through the creation of a temporary group spirit or wyter, that last while the group is together. I would say this is something shamans would be better than other magicians at, rather than worse. That's why I'm suggesting that a shaman, Sheng Seleris, invented the concept
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a Graeme.Lindsell_at_anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" - Ripping Yarns
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