Nick H, way, way back:
>3. Why cant the Gods tell that the illuminant is not bound to
>them in the way that their other worshippers are. If there is
>some form of bond between the two why cant the god tell that
>in this believers case he puts it on and takes it off as it
>suits him.
>
>4. We dont understand how the Gods see mortals and how close
>an eye they keep on them. I think that a God is aware of his
>followers in proportion to their importance to him.
I've always taken the rules in RQIII (I know, _rules?_, sigh) that state that a god doesn't know what their worshippers are thinking, only what they tell them in prayer (and witness in their spheres of influence) as indicating that the authors of RQ/Glorantha were using as their source Greek and Roman paganism...or, more accurately I suppose, the model proposed by a lot of modern historians of Greco-Roman paganism as being based on cult _acts_ as opposed to a (Christian) concept of _faith_. A god is, IMHO, unaware of whether a particular worshipper continues to show up at ceremonies simply to get spells, as a result of peer pressure, or out of an actual belief in the god's righteousness; lots of players, after all, pick and choose their character's cults for the material/magical benefits available, not because worshipping the god makes sense for the culture (I have yet to play in a campaign dominated by grain goddess worshippers). Gods are generally incapable of loosing spirits of reprisal unless some sort of actual apostate act has occured, and must even rely on their priestly representatives to excommunicate offenders. Privately deciding that your god is full of it isn't going to get you in trouble; pissing on the sacrifice on high holy day will (unless, I suppose, you belong to Urox or ZZ or Mallia).
It seems to me that as long as an illuminant continues to perform their cult functions with dilligence, they are in effect acting exactly like all of the god's other worshippers, and are indistinguishable from them until some _act_ spills the beans. As a side note, I would agree with the criticism that the paganism=cult-acts/christianity=faith (or, for that matter, Old Testament=the Law/New Test.=faith) schema is way too reductive, and would probably go along with Robin Lane Fox's supposition that pagans were interested in an "attitude of religiousness", which he primarily identifies as awe mixed with a little fear which, in its most extreme form, becomes superstition (a subtle and perhaps hair-splitting distinction from faith). In fact, I've often thought that it is that very element of awe which the illuminant first loses (cf. the Orlanthi priest's suspicions of Oddi in CoT/LoT); maybe this lack of awe and fear of the divine is the source of an illuminant' s immunity to spirits of reprisal?
Some slightly related topics --
Dominic Escott:
>What I don't understand,
>is everyone is supposed to remember the tales of the creation of >Osenchalka
[i.e. Nysalor the Bright] and his corruption in history.
David Cake, in response:
> Sure they remember. They just remember a different version of it
>than you do. Read the differing viewpoints in Lords of Terror, for >example.
>Nysalor the Bright was not corrupted (that is barbarian propoganda), >just
attacked and destroyed by the forces of ignorance and >darkness.
In addition to agreeing with Mr. Cake, I'd want to add that there may be a small (but perhaps significant) distinction in many Gloranthans' minds between the creation of an entirely new divinity such as Nysalor and the recreation/rebirth of a pre-Compromise figure like the Red Goddess. The rediscovery of an ancient god or goddess doesn't strike me as being entirely uncommon, in that I can think of at least two official/semiofficial instances of such in published scenarios (let alone in the myriad speculations on Gloranthan history and myth), namely the fire goddess Firshala in the old Griffin Mountain book (still just about the best rpg product I've ever seen), and the earth godling Baroshi in SPH. In both those cases, I seem to recall that the divine beings released into the world were given a fairly wide latitude for personal actions, and after all, the Red Goddess did not become associated with Chaos until her heroquest/godquest (at least, I think, though that may just be Lunar propaganda). The creation of Nysalor out of whole cloth may have been viewed as a far more extreme act by some, particularly once they finally figured out what he was up to.
Dominic:
>To be detailed in the Lunar Book (coming real soon now, we hope).
I could be wrong, but I think you're thinking about the two-book (player book/gm book) set about the Lunar army that AH is supposed to be coming out with at some point; I can't remember both titles, but I think one is _In the Service of the Emperor_. I don't remember who the authors are supposed to be - -- I think they were named in some post somewhere -- but I believe the editor is Mike Dawson (Mike, are you out there?). Of course, with the AH sales rumors about, the publication schedule of the two-book Lunar army set may be up in the air.
On the whole "Illumination and the 7M" thread, I'd want to add that in addition to the various Nysalorean cults that seem to have existed between the "death" of Nysalor and his rediscovery by the RG, illumination would also seem to have been a contiuous part of Kralorelan culture during that time (perhaps someone can confirm that suspicion?) and probably also existed amongst the rulers of Arkat's Dark Empire. Incidentally, I've often thought of the troll/human cult of Black Arkat as a possible source of illumination for trolls, so perhaps Jakaleel (assuming that she was, in fact, a troll) might have been a member of that cult? (An illuminated troll sorcerer-priestess of Subere; now there's a thought).
And finally (whew),
Andrew Behan:
>On another matter all together (and I hope the local Lunar lovers >won't
flame me for this) I have a theory about what will happen what >will happen
when Wakbotlar (sp?), from Lords of Terror, finally sires >the "Devil". It's
the long-awaited incarnation of the White Moon!
Hmm; I'm sort of under the impression that _King of Sartar_ confirmed the implications of that HeroWars prophecy of the White Moon as the "dead" Moon (I can't remember off-hand how the prophecy goes -- something like " the White Moon is the moon of calm and peace, for who is more peaceful than the dead?" or some such); the White Moon is the appearance of the Goddess after she is pulled down/"killed" by the True Dragons summoned by Argrath. By the way, and I fully expect to get roasted over this comment, reading about that act was the final nail in the coffin of my pro-Argrath period (or, as we used to call him in the days of the Great Cradle Robbery, Garrath Sharpsword ;-)). Summoning those dragons struck me as being the Gloranthan equivalent of Truman's decision to drop the bomb, but at least KoS hinted that the Goddess will triumph in the end.
Sorry about the length of the post,
Mark
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #39
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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