Me>>'Um, child sacrifice was part of daily Carthaginian Life'
>That is actually a good example for the position that the Vadeli are the
>victims of propaganda. The records of extensive child sacrifice in Carthage
>are all written by the Romans who were the Carthaginians' worst enemies.
It isn't solely Roman propoganda. The Greeks also wrote about them too and there have been archaeological excavations at the Tophet which have uncovered numerous bodies of children which is considerably more than the 'occasional child sacrifices' from leading families in times of emergency (I see the concept of the Nobles-only cult is rearing its hoary head again *sigh*).
Much of the denial that the Carthagianins sacrificed children appears to stem from disbelief that they could not have done such an evil thing whilst oblivious to the fact that the Carthaginians did not _themselves_ see it as evil. Custom is king as Darius once said.
Me>>'bloodletting was a key part in Mesoamerican religious traditions
>>(the Aztecs took it to extremes).'
>Again there is a lot of propaganda here. The Spanish did their best to
>demonize the native religions in Central and South America.
Yet we have records from the Azetcs and the Maya _themselves_ detailing what they did. This does not qualify as spanish propoganda by a long shot.
>Certainly there was extensive human sacrifice in the Aztec culture, and
>some human sacrifice in the other cultures. Most of the bloodletting was
>self-inflicted on the leaders of the culture, kings and nobles ritually
>drew blood from their own tongues and penes.
If it happened then how is what I say *propoganda*? And merely because the records describe Nobles doing the practices does not mean that such devotions were alien to the commoners. Societies are not built on Master Races goose-stepping over wretched slaves - there is a continuum of belief *between* those that run society and those on the bottom rungs. The Carmanians are an excellent example of this.
>In contrast, the Vadeli seem to have deliberately chosen acts that they
>themselves regard as immoral precisely because of the magical energy
>inherent in the violation of taboos. They have chosen to act in a
>despicable fashion and they do not justify or rationalize, rather they
>revel in the immorality of their actions.
The Vadeli are _amoral_ rather than immoral. They do not regard what they do as evil because they are _beyond_ good and evil. They do not believe in Solace. For them to eat children is just as natural as eating or drinking - it is an act of life preservation. To tell them that such an act is _morally_ wrong brings a blank response from them because they do not care about morals. For them, only the observance of the Laws of Vadel matter.
As for how they choose to do their 'horrible' stuff (shit, blood and death) doesn not require evilness on part of Vadel. He like the Brithini in their identification and observance of the Law had divorced themselves from moral considerations. Then the eating of children and the usage of blood had become viable options which the animal instincts had only previously repulsed them from adopting. The adoption of such practices is an example of the Triumph of Vadeli Logic over Bestial Instincts. The survival of such considerations in the inferior laws of the Brithini and the Malkioni bespeak the fact that they still have not divorced themselves from their bestial natures.
Guy Hoyle:
>>Um, child sacrifice was part of daily Carthaginian Life and
>>bloodletting was a key part in Mesoamerican religious traditions
>>(the Aztecs took it to extremes). Yet they saw it as _normal_.
>>Whatever next? The Fonritans don't practice slavery?
>Your points are certainly true about human sacrifice in Carthage and
>Mesoamerica, but I believe you've taken it to extremes.
Taken _what_ to extremes? There are tribes in PNG that eat dead members of society. Are they evil? I don't see why squeamish sensibilities should require the Vadeli to be maligned merely because what they do is so over the top.
>I simply think that your proposals would make better rumors than reality
>if I were running a Glorantha campaign.
Of course it's rumour. Nobody has ever penetrated a Brown Vadeli Ghetto nor returned with accurate anthropological observations about the Reds. All they have are Brithini records about the Great War against the Vadeli, which are so horrific to induce disbelief amongst some. The fact that the PCs will discover such rumours are actually _true_ is only spice to MGF.
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