Peter, Carl Fink, and (I think) Saravan Peacock provide the supposition and evidence that life pre-Time for some cultures was not that different from life during Time. In good GL fashion, I would say that this is evidence that those cultures simply never noticed the occurrence of Time, not that they were measuring Time prior to Time existing. (I do not think that this is true of the Uz. They probably noticed the existence of time, but it was simply less important that the arrival of the burning god in Hell.) I like Nick Thed-Shaman's generalization of a race being so involved with their gods (and hence in the gods' plane, which is not bound by Time), that they never noticed the advent of Time.
Peter also objects that the idea of Time being released more or less at the Dawn is a GL concept. Yup. So?
In what Peter perhaps views as the other side of the coin, "Plentonius, Zzabur and the Kralori all independently believe that time was measurable before the Dawn." Again, I do not see why being able to measure causality necessitates a measurement of time. On this point, Nick says "Considering that time did not exist in pre-Compromise Glorantha then the amount of turnings of the glass don't matter. If you had two hourglasses on opposite sides of Glorantha, they might measure different periods when they were brought back together." I could not agree more, which means I was unclear in my first post. My point was that Zzabur et alia were measuring causality, not Time, and subsequently were misinterpreted to have been measuring Time. (A few of my less fortunate brethren erred.) The hourglasses turned by different people would have different causes, so would end up with different measurements. (Stepping out of my GL role for a minute and into my RW post-modern self, if "measuring causality" is not a great GL concept, I've never seen one.) Why Zzabur would want to measure causality is a little unclear, but will certainly become more clear with the progress and universal reinstitution of God Learning.
Peter asks why someone measuring the turnings of an hour glass would call it something other than Time. Simply because Time did not yet exist. (Great circularity, huh?) If you do not accept that premise, you should not accept my description of what pre-Time causality measurers were up to.
Peter then beats me to a very ragged pulp with sources saying that there were day and night and rotations of the sky during pre-Time. This is what comes of being out of the RQ loop for too many years. Trying gracefully to extract my foot from my mouth: I'll admit that Yelm was free to travel (he was the Emperor after all), but contend that he generally stayed on the Spike (he was the Emperor after all). I can't respond to the Entoskiad quote because I don't have it and don't understand it. (Wasn't that graceful?) The rotation of the sky per GRAY can be an effect of causes and hence could be measured just like other causes and effects. Kralorea's seasons of course do refer to events in pre-Time, but they were not temporal in any case. (Besides, everyone knows that nothing reliable comes from Kralorea; they were nearly impossible to re-educate and still believe in that dragon nonsense.) The LBQ was not an attempt to recreate the pre-Time seasons, but its mythic scope is confined to generally Theyelan areas. There you have it: GL fundamentalism.
Nick seems to agree with some of what I said, but not the rest (typical of a Thed-Shaman). He challenges me to explain how Chalana Arroy, who was in Hell awaiting the coming of the Devil after he was killed by Urox, was also on the surface healing Urox after his battle with the Devil. Simple. First, you have to remove the words "after" from your challenge because they are temporal concepts that do not apply. Then trace the lines of causality. Because she's a healer, she heals Urox. Because she's a light bringer, she's in Hell. (P.S. where's it say she was waiting for the Devil? Were you referring to the LBQ, as I assumed? Like I said, I've been out of touch.) I refer back to what Lewis Jardin said (and with which I initially disagreed, but now agree because I like Oliver Bernuetz's second post about pre-Time being 3-D and Time being 4-D) about events in pre-Time being located in space but not Time. She can be in multiple places all at the same not-Time. To visit these events on a heroquest, you must locate the geographical analog on the gods' plane, but it will be there regardless of when in Gloranthan Time you decide to visit.
I see nothing contrary with my statement that hunger, fatigue, death, etc. were effects in Nick's objection that their causes were the invocation of Death, attacks by malign spirits, or the exhaustion of the soul.
I very much like Daniel McCluskey's explanation of the difference between pre-Time and Time and propose to initiate him as a God Learner (which ought to completely convince the rest of ye ignorant backwater heathens that he is wrong).
For those non-God Learners out there, convert! Reconcile the irreconcilable. Hey! Put out those torches! You might burn some books!
Chris Lemens, GL
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #265
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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