They are exactly what I meant. Thanks for digging up the names of these obscure spirit cult entities, and give me just one more powerful deity the Rathori worship. Even Frona (a one-spell-wonder grain-and-land goddess) would do...
>Joerg is also apparently ignorant that Shamanistic Cultures can
>achieve a high degree of urban sophistication to wit the Maya
>(cf "Forest of Kings" by Linda Schele).
Not quite ignorant. Add the Korean shamanism. But this isn't anywhere near the beast totem shamanism you'd expect from "hsunchen".
>In addition, shamans in
>glorantha can achieve a great range of magical effects that can
>really be equalled by civilized cultures. Look at Nomad Gods
>or what Sheng Seleris did at the Battle of Gardint. Put the
>early Malkioni on the recieving end. Do you still think that
>the Basmoli *must* have had sorcerers and worship fully-fledged
>gods?
No doubt shamans can be devastating when the opponent doesn't have them. They are like war elephants - a great tactical surprise which can be turned against the user once the opponent knows what hit them. (In this case, uses an appropriate controlling spell and turns the spirits back on the summoner...)
The Pendali sorcerers were likely more similar to the Orathorn sorcerers (which I doubt ever were part of the Kingdom of Logic) than Zzabur's or the Vadeli magic.
Their actual worship of "real gods" (as opposed to Thanz the acorn spirit) is something they did. I don't know if they really had to.
>>Some of them lived in cities, others had agriculture, and some had lion
>>companions.
>If Joerg believes that I disagree with any of this then he hasn't
>been following the debate very well. What I disagreed on was
>whether the Pendali had sorcerers and/or iron armour.
If a culture has agriculture, it ceases to be Hsunchen. Look at the Rathori, they even have houses, but they practice neither agriculture nor horticulture, out of choice.
Hrestol's slaying of Ifftala, the daughter of Seshna the land goddess, was instrumental in the Malkioni success (i.e. to survive the grave breach of hospitality they had incurred on the Pendali) by weakening their earth magics. However, it would have been for naught had not his father, King Froalar, married Seshna Likita to give recompensation for the lost daughter, and thereby aquired the same earth magics for his people.
Now, either the Malkioni adopted shamanistic practises to survive, or the Pendali magics weren't that "primitive hsunchen". Your choice, Peter.
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