>Zorak Zoran called Zoraq, nah! I don't like that one too much. I associated
>him with either Orjethulut or Hanjethulut (the Two brothers deities from the city of
>Yngortu, they are often associated with being Humakt and Zorak Zoran in
>heretical sibling rivalry).
Where or what is Yngortu? I understand from Sandy's latest Fonrit posting about the Umathelans worshipping the most accesible of the Fonritan Gods, that Humakt is known as Enkidu in Fonrit (and appears as a skeleton wielding a sword and shield).
>What I had been doing was looking at the religious make up of each city
>state, I think each one has used a pick and mix system of favourite gods,
>as well as having some ancient ones imposed upon them. I also perceive
>differences between Afadjann and Kareeshtu as a whole, one example is
>the Sun gods:
>In Afadjann I have Fida'Is the Slave Sunbird who tumbles across the sky
>in his death throws until his final conflagration in the west. [...] In
>Kareeshtu Az-Yahlem is venerated as the sun. He is the back burner, he is
>the scorching tyrant who keeps order and rule.
I think in Coastal Fonrit (ie the densely populated coastal region that includes Afadjann and Kareeshtu), the mythology would be both more unified and more prone to individual city state variation.
To elaborate, the myriad cities have been unified at various times by many people including the Kalabarians, the Faladjites and even the Vadeli. Thus I would expect for the major gods, that there would be some semi-standard identifications that could be recognized across Fonrit. In places like the Banamban Coast and the Tarahorn, one would start to see signs of non-standard identifications.
For instance, until the Opening of the Oceans by the Great God Dormal, Faladje was a very powerful Solar city which exacted tribute from its neighbouring states (which includes several Kareeshtuan and Afajanni Cities). Thus I would not expect that the Kareeshtuans and the Afadjanni have two different names for the Sun. There will be some cultic differences between the cities.
For example, the people of Afadjann will view the Sun as the Great Phoenix and his temple is known as the Cult of Fida'is the Phoenix. To the people of Tenenku, Fida'is is a Golden Beetle and to the Sailors of Dindanko, he is the Fiery Boat that sails across the heavens. To the Men of Fanjosi, Fida'is is the First Consort of Seseine and at night, She is the horrifying Queen of the Dead. In the City of Garguna, they rever Fida'is as the Solar Disc. Look at the myriad forms of Egyptian gods to get an angle of how the Fonritans would approach these matters. In Faladje, all these aspects would have a shrine in their great temple to the Sun, Fida'is.
Secondly I'm not so sure that the Fonritans would consciously rever a god as a either a 'slave' in his 'death-throes' or as a 'back burner' and a 'scorching tyrant'. These sound like polemics written by foreigners rather than what the Fonritans themselves believe. Would a Dara Happan describe Yelm as an Evil Emperor that thrives on oppressively high taxation? Or the Malkioni describe the Invisible God as a prudish misogynist? I likewise view the prosopaedia description of Ompalam as similarly distorted.
Thus Fida'is would be IMO seen by the Afadjanni themselves as a Phoenix which rises regally in the east at the Dawn, soars majestically towards the Zenith at Noon, and then glides gracefully to its funeral pyre in the west at Dusk.
Lastly, Golden Kareeshtu does not really have a uniform mythology. It is a confederation composed of three city states and their allies. One of the states is Tondiji whose worshippers believe he rules the other gods (including the Sun, Storm, the Invisible God etc). The next state is the City of Dindanko which worships the Great God Dormal and seeks to enforce his rule over the Oceans of Glorantha. All the presense of all other gods in this city is muted. The last state is Katale which is founded by religious fanatics who tried to turn Fonrit into another Doraddiland.
Likewise I do not expect the cities of Afadjann to have a common mythology other than the State cult of the Jann as the Wise and benevolent leader, the Shadow of Heaven upon earth and all that. There is however less variation between the cities in Afadjann than in Kareeshtu IMO because Afadjann has a longer history of unity.
Trotsky:
>Also, I'd have thought that to Read/Write Brithini you'd also need to be
>able to speak it (though not necessarily very well) if it really is a
>phonetic alphabet.
I don't follow. It's been proposed that Brithini is simply an alphabet rather than being a phonetic alphabet (with schwas and other obscure precision-orientated notations that implies).
>Peter Metcalfe suggested that the written Western language might be
>analogous with Arabic. Judging from the Arabs from various regions
>(Iraq and Lebanon mainly, but also a few other countries) the
>variations Peter mentions are more dialects than true languages.
A language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Secondly Arabic is only similar in the basic vocabulary (ie the words found in the Qu'ran). For words which are in this basic vocabulary, the dialects tend to borrow from available languages. Like for 'table', Syrian Arabic uses an Italian word, Egyptian a Greek and Mesopotamian Arabic a Persian word.
>Sort of like Loskalmi and Carmanian
>with their 1/2 comprehension modifiers rather than Loskalmi and Seshnegi,
>which I would expect to be far more distinctive to the point of not being
>able to share a phonetic written language.
Generally I would reckon languages which are comprehensible with a 1/3 difference to be merely dialects of the same language (much like BBC English and Jim Taggart Glaswegian. The Loskalmi and the Seshnegi are able to understand Spoken Brithini (although they would call it Old Malkioni IMO) at 1/3 of their normal skill. They can understand it better than they can understand each other.
Joerg Baumgartner:
>[Would the EWF have the sorcery that was] pre-Return to Rightness Crusade,
>or the GodLearned RuneQuest variation? There would be a great difference, as
>pre-Rightness sorcery would have been more similar to the Stygian approach.
It would definitely be pre-Return to Rightness as the EWF is up and running before the Return to Rightness. There may be some interchange of sorcerous knowledge at Nochet City.
As for the difference, I think it goes beyond henotheistic worship of other gods (which is what I understand by 'the Stygian approach'). I've seen some wastepaper basket-grade material which classifies western thought as a series of deeper understandings about the Cosmos. According to this, the God Learners came to understand the Invisible God whereas the previous level of understanding reached was Hrestol's Joy of the Heart. That was itself deeper than Malkion's Solace. Precisely *how* this impacts on sorcery in general, I haven't the foggiest.
I can't make a decision about whether the Western Army in Dragon Pass was henotheistic because I don't know what the Western Army was actually like when it reached Dragon Pass. Was it a Seshnegi Army or were its ranks filled with pagan slontans?
>>Delecti is even described as becoming a Magus around
>>800 ST or so.
>Do you have a source for this?
The description of the Upland Marsh in the Dragon Pass Writeup in G:CotHW
>>Undoubtedly the Lore of the God Learners was much more comprehensive
>>than the EWF but then the EWF 'mapped' sorcerous concepts onto the
>>draconic realm (akin to the Red Goddess's fusion of spirit magic and
>>sorcery).
>Yes. However, I have the feeling that "Godunya's Magic" is a similar case.
Probable although I don't believe that the magic of the pre-FDR Kralori is the same as the magic of the 'newts. For starters, it was more comprehensible to the human mind although it pret ends not to be.
>>This gave their sorcery a sinster twist and enhanced their
>>control over some draconic effects.
>While I fail to see why lefthanded should be equated with sinister
I was punning (inveterately) here. Sinister is derived from Latin meaning left. Right is Dexter as in dexterity.
>(more so
>in a region where almost everyone knew Auld Wyrmish at 30% or better - which
>makes me wonder where and how the native languages survived, shouldn't all
>of them have ended up like the Pavic language? Were the Orlanthi dialects
>re-introduced by Alakoring and his southwestern Pelorian allies?)
I don't think everybody in Dragon Pass knew Auld Wyrmish, only those who were dragonspeakers (who were just as common as illuminates in both Nysalor's time and the Lunar Empire today IMO). Secondly, I don't think the Dragonspeakers used Auld Wyrmish for communication amongst themselves but to cast magic and to speak with Dragons.
As for the dialects, remember the Sartarite dialect is from the Manirian family and not all of these were controlled by the EWF. Some like Caladraland and Esrolia were controlled by the God Learners. The gap between the Pelorian and Manirian families is caused by the Dragonkill War and the Inhuman occupation IMO.
One could argue that despite the example in the Languages of Glorantha (G:CotHW), Old Pavic and Sun Country should be treated as a seperate pavic family of the Theyalan languages.
>I agree on Vistikos' revelations as a key to the organized EWF magics,
>though Rostand the Speaker's immunity to the spirits of Retribution might
>have predated this.
It seems to me that the wars in which the loyal Orlanthi were expelled from their homes (as per KoS) may be the same as the unrest in Dragon Pass in 573 ST (as per G:CotHW).
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