Discussing with Peter Metcalfe (I know I shouldn't), I said:
>>Not quite. Most of Kerofinela was under Dagori Inkarth control, the OOO
>>controlled Esrolia and Caladraland, and (perhaps) Hendriki-ruled Heortland
>>(which IMO included parts of modern Sartar and Grazelands in that time).
>>I always thought the Tax Slaughter took place somewhere near Aldachur,
>>outside of the OOO's sphere.
Peter quotes:
: 'The success of the Yelmalio worshippers in Holay inspired : the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass to try their skills as well. : This struggle was longer and harder, and it did not begin : until the Tax Slaughter of 578 when the revolutionaries : had prepared themselves. There were several large battles : in day or night, against both Dagori Inkarth and _Shadowlands_ : [my emphasis - phm] armies. However, the human Orlanthi won : out and freed themselves from the odious taxation.' : Uz Lore p34.
>For someone who allegedly did not benefit from Arkat's Command, the
>OOO is putting a surprising amount of effort in crushing the rebellion.
Having armies fighting in large battles. Hmm.
One thing which is different is that the Kitori tribe (of trolls, at least) seems to have continued to lord over humans. They, or any other local troll group in charge of collecting (and using up?) the tribute would have mustered against a breach of this privilege, I suppose. And may have won.
>I think instead the division of Dragon Pass was 50:50 between the OOO
>and Dagori Inkarth.
Holay was Dagori Inkarth/Elder Wilds territory, and Heortling country. IMO the OOO ruled over the Hendriki who, as supporters of Arkat, would have had a better deal. Especially given that their lordship over their lands was reconstituted at the same time as the OOO was reinstituted as lord over Kethaela (essentially Shadow Plateau, Esrolia and Caladraland, the Isles having been outside of his direct rule before, and Hendrikiland had been practically empty except for the Pelaskite fisherfolk along the shores and river mouths) in more than name.
When I said "read Geolgin Askarios" I meant read the intentions with which he invertigated the troll cults, not "read his bio", although that holds the interesting bit "He believed that life in the Shadowlands was th ebest possible life, that rule by darkness was inevitable and benevolent, and that rule by trolls could contain no treachery and was the result of natural order, and therefore inevitable."
>>>>Or into the Praxian Marches, or into Ditaliland.
>>>The Praxian marches are inhabited by hostile nomads
>>And were settled in larger numbers in the early 1300s, after the failed
>>Trader Prince expedition to Teshnos, if what was discussed a couple of weeks
>>ago holds your approval.
>How can one reach Teshnos without going through the Praxian Marches
>from the Holy Country (during the Closing)?
Not at all (except through the coastal marshes - good luck!). In fact, it didn't work out through the Praxian Marches either.
>And the Trader Princes are the Malkioni Lords of Maniria. They are not
>to be found in Heortland or God Forgot.
In that case we have western influences spreading to Hendrikiland without westerners to influence them where they lived. Is that likely?
>Assuming that Knight Fort is meant here, no firm date has been attached to
>when it was founded AFAIK.
True. Although we seem to have agreed that whatever fortifications the Manirians expanded had been there earlier, if in a cruder form.
IMO the Trader Princes didn't need until 1313 to reach the Praxian Marches.
>>>and the history of Wenelia is still largely unknown. Thus we cannot
>>>rule out people fleeing brutal oppression by the OOO.
>>Or vice versa. Read Geolgin Askarios.
>All we have there is a war with Slontan Marines. No mention of refugees
>on either side.
True. Neither mention of brutal oppression by the OOO, but the opposite. Of course Geolgin wrote propaganda (every contemporary historian aka chronist does), but was that pure propaganda?
>>>>Fact is, people fled into the Shadowlands rather than out of them
>>>>(except when the lands were invaded).
>>>Name one migration into the Shadowlands.
>>The Trader Princes of southern Heortland in the early 3rd Age.
>That is not a migration! That is a bunch of knights seeking trade
>between Kethaela and the rest.
Settling in the lands they wanted to trade with - at least in Nochet.
>And despite Joerg's suggestion, they were still intent on trading with
>Kethaela _after_ the Pharaoh took power.
Sure. I guess they may have sponsored him. War is good for their kind of business.
>>Of the 2nd Age, there is no data available, although I suppose that
>>Old Day Traditionalists had it easier in the Shadowlands than in the
>>EWF proper.
>Weren't they in Talastar?
Can't remember any explicite location. Talastar had been EWFed as well...
>>>As for the Esrolian migrations, surely their larger population would
>>>mean that there would be more migrants into Dragon Pass? The number
>>>of Vendref under the Grazer yoke (assuming that they are Esrolians)
>>>seem to contradict this.
>>Those who survived. Remember that the Grazers were Pentans by culture, with
>>a thorough disregard for the ground people - cattle to be raided or
>>slaughtered for fun.
>Doesn't look like it according to p112 of KoS. Once the people were
>subjugated then the Grazers were quite happy to lord over them.
Ok. Under Hendroste Goldhand, all intruders were enslaved. Doesn't mean that they were allowed to till the land, though, but that they became menial servants of the nomads. IMO we can talk about Vendref only when the Grazers allowed them to till their sacred land, which may well have taken a generation (H. Goldhand to Goldheart, who may have realized from his contacts with Arim the Pauper that the sedentary slaves yielded more wealth than as menial assistant herders).
>>IMO the Colymar came from the Creek-Stream River valley just north of the
>>place where now the Lead Hills block its path.
>That is far too close to the Shadow Plateau for my liking. If that were
>the case one would expect the Colymar to be dominated by Darkness like
>the Torkani are.
Well, they do have the Black Spear. Sounds very Argan Argar to me, at least. And the Colymar claim that the Kitori granted them safe passage.
>>IMO the Colymar branch of the Orshanti were one of several Orlanthi clans
>>living under Kitori rule in the haunted lands north of the Obsidian Castle,
>>in a region with a continuous change from Esrolite to Hendriki culture.
>I fail to see how you can extend Esrolite influence into this
>region. As of 1605, the Esrolians were as far away as the
>site of the Building Wall.
As of 1605, the Grazers have long since stopped keeping north of the Crossline. The lands to the south have become their favourite raiding ground, and like the Pelorians in the Redlands the Esrolites have pulled back their border to create a no man's land between themselves and the Grazers. Especially after the fall of the Kitori as protectors of the Haunted Lands under the rebellion's leadership of young Tarkalor.
>Given that Arkat's Hold lies in this
>region, it seems that this was the traditional boundary between
>Esrolia and Dragon Pass.
Arkat's Hold may as well have been the administrative centre of the Esrolian Marches to the north, and the logical place to raise an army to march northward. It is a border fortress now.
>After Dragon Pass was opened, the
>Map in Uz lore p33 indicates that the Grazers extended their
>influence over the Crossline up to the region of the Building
>Wall. Hence I find it doubtful that there were any Esrolians
>north of the Arkat's Hold and New Crystal City before this.
Au contraire, IMO the Grazers started to raid these lands, and bled the farmers dry.
>>Fragments of
>>the clan are likely to live elsewhere, too - remember that Hendriki clans
>>can easily reach the size of Sartarite tribes.
>I find this improbable. How does their clan structure cope with it?
By allowing sub-clans to develop. IMO the Hendriki oversized clans are loathe to call themselves "tribes" in the Alakoringite way, so they cling to the clan structure and tamper with it.
Large Sartarite clans may have village leaders representing the clan chieftain, too. Small clusters of steads will follow a thane.
>After Colymar's death, the clan had to split itself up fivefold barely
>one generation of unrestricted expansion.
After 10 years of exposure to "tribes" smaller than their own "clan". After switching from the careless "nobody will attack us" mode of settlement (which seems to have worked with strong patrons disallowing fortifications - do you expect Vendref villages to have stockades?) to the Alakoringite hill fort settlement.
Was Garneneva a Vingan?
>>And Garneneva must have
>>been around 60 when she faced Belintar, assuming normal generation shifts
>>for her lineage.
>Yup. Much more plausible for a Vingan than a Esrolian Priestess
>(remember the conflict is hand-to-hand).
IMO after the magical ambush failed when Belintar volunteered as Year King and returned from the sacrifice after his year had gone.
Your opinion won't coincide...
>Moreover this puts the origin of the Orshanti dissidents
>further to the east and means they came from the Volsaxi rather than
>north of the Lead Hills.
There were no Volsaxi prior to Tarkalor's coup which removed the Kitori rulers. There were subject clans who paid tribute (still called Arkat's Command?) to the Kitori.
We don't know how the Black Spear Clan led by Beneva and Colymar traveled before they reached the Cross Line, either.
>>1315 or 1316 sound very convincing to me [as the date for the
>>Colymar entry into Dragon Pass], and the 1300 of CHDP sounds
>>like capital Bollocks if taken literally.
>We could assume that Colymar and his wife left Esrolia around 1300
>or so as this is before Belintar swam ashore which would support
>Densesros's passage that nobody knows why he left. Then they were
>invited around 1315 by the Kitori to pick up the Orshanti dissidents
>a few years later.
Interesting. There might be problems with this assumption, but it might have potential.
>After all at this time, the benefits of the
>Pharaoh's rule had not yet become apparent...
Effectively the Pharaoh had brought civil war and religious upheaval. If you look at Heortland, this situation remained until at least 1350.
>>The most problematic statement is "of the Orshanti clan [...] of the
>>Hendriki tribe". It is perfectly possible to be good Orlanthi and yet live
>>in North Esrolia, with firm ties into their earth worship.
>They would not be Hendriki if they lived in Northern Esrolia.
This sounds like "Harmast can't have been a Berennethtelli if he lived in southern Kerofinela". When I lived and worked in Norway (for a year only, I admit) I still remained a German. There are people who maintained a German identity (from the time when they had been called in by the local rulers as settlers) through lots of generations in eastern Europe. If tribal membership is an ancestral relation, I can't see why splinters maintaining an identity cannot live far from the main group.
For fun, in my campaign I have Aldachuri refugees from the 1611 takeover by Harvar Ironfist making up exile groups south of Jansholm. That kind of thing adds local colour and gives opportunity for unusual characters (non-player, at least). They speak a different language, keep different traditions, etc.
The Colymar severance of their ancestral ties seems to be unusual, and caused by the extreme situation when they entered a forbidden land. (Note how the Pure Horse People survivors who formed the Grazers about 65 years before the Colymar entered did the same thing...)
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #566
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