>> Joerg OTOH claimed that the Grazers killed off any immigrants]
>I said most, or many, not any. They did take slaves.
Oops. My mistake. It should have been most immigrants.
>>If [the vendref] weren't allowed to till the land then what good are they
>>for?
>I refer you to the Praxian slave debate. Both the pre-Vendref Grazers and
>the Praxians don't rely on agricultural subjects (or the loss of control
>over an oasis would be an existential blow to a Praxian clan).
Yeah but having grain grown for you is a good thing or else many nomads wouldn't be enslaving farmers both in glorantha and in the RW. The first age Hyalorings did become Emperors of Dara Happa.
Me>>Lastly the Grazers are not stupid. They've lorded it over the Oasis
>>Folk in their time not so long ago
>about 70 years ago, i.e. in hardly any living memory.
But virtually contemporary in mythic terms. Even the Sartarites feel the need to avenge a horse theft that took place 200 years ago.
>Not that the Pure
>Horse people had been dominant during the last centuries in Prax...
Still doesn't preclude them from knowing the value of helots.
>>and have tales about when they were Princes in Pavis.
>Not exactly. Joraz Kyrem split off from the Pure Horse tribe.
I doubt this. I think that he combined the leadership of the Pure Horse Tribe, the Zebra Riders and the City of Pavis in his hands.
>I'm not even sure that the Pure Horse people remained allies of
>Joraz' dynasty, after all he had perverted their purity.
Well they did seem to be willing to oppose Gerak Kag attacking Pavis. Furthermore no dissension with Joraz is noted when the Zebras were created so I doubt that it was such a big deal. After all the purity of the Pure Horse People is still intact.
>>So why should they get their knickers in a twist if
>>some slaves grow grain for their benefit?
>Because these slaves dig up the very best pastures to do so.
Who said they are digging up the best pastures? The Vendref farm where the Grazers tell them to.
>>>As of 1605, the Grazers have long since stopped keeping north of the
>>>Crossline. The lands to the south have become their favourite raiding
>>>ground, and like the Pelorians in the Redlands the Esrolites have
>>>pulled back their border to create a no man's land between themselves
>>>and the Grazers.
>>Given that Belintar is now on the throne of the Holy Country, one
>>would have thought that he would have taken a stand against the
>>Grazers moving into his lands.
>Well, IMO the lands in question had been delegated (or forcefully subjected)
>to Kitori rule (at least as tribute-taking bandit lords), and we know that
>the Kitori were difficult subjects at any time.
The Kitori live over in the Troll Woods. We are talking about lands on the other side of the Shadow Plateau. So why would the Pharaoh give the lands to the Kitori (who were not subject to the Pharaoh) when he has the Uz of the Shadow Plateau?
Futhermore this goes against the Pharaohs known principles of governance (ie hive everything off into sixths).
>Belintar never seems to have taken great interest in the northern
>border before 1325, when his scouts told him that there lived people
>in Dragon Pass.
Given that he was fighting a war in 1313 to 1318 and that Dragon Pass was known to be open only around 1625, that bespeaks a rapid reaction time on the behalf of the Pharaoh.
>>Furthermore I would have expected some record of this in the Grazer
>>Kings List.
>For some reason, Densesros doesn't mention _any_ major events in the Holy
>Country unrelated to Argrath/prior to the siege of Whitewall.
The Grazer's Kings List is most complete in Jalk's Book so the arguement of Densesros omitting Holy Country events fails methinks.
>>Moreover I fail to
>>see how the Esrolians can 'pull back' their border given that their
>>land is densely populated. There isn't any room to resettle the
>>inhabitants of that land within Esrolia proper.
>There are always the slum quarters of Nochet, and other cities.
They are transformed from productive farmers to proles. That is going to put a huge crimp on Esrola's grain surplus.
>>>Au contraire, IMO the Grazers started to raid [the lands between the
>>>crossline and the building wall], and bled the farmers dry.
>>And the Pharaoh stood by and did nothing while the Grazers
>>exterminated the Esrolians between the Crossline and the
>>Lysos River? I don't think so.
>What could he have done? Annexed the Grazelands, allies of the kingdom of
>Tarsh, his most useful (only) buffer state vs. the expanding Lunar Empire?
It depends when you think this took place. It can't have happened before 1325 as the Grazers are only discovered then. In 1350, the Pharaoh has made a border with Ironhoof (to whom the Grazers own allegiance) at the Crossline. So it can't have happened after this time. (My opinion is the Grazers expanded after 1616 ST...)
Between 1325 and 1350, the Lunar Empire is far away as Holay and the Grazers were not allied to the Tarshites. So Belintar shouldn't have any problems with reprisals against the Grazers.
>Somehow the offensive military power of Kethaela leaves a lot to
>desire...
Only in recent years. I do feel that during the fourteenth to the sixteenth century, the Kethaelan army was good.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #576
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