>Basically, at Convulsion Greg described the Malkioni devolution in terms
>of the devolution of Malkion.
>Malkion seems to have been present in the stages of one (Prime Mover)
>and two, though I don't recall them right now.
I myself think this is written by Zzabur after the supposed events and represents an idealisation of his good father before he went insane and became a mortal.
>In stage three, Malkion the Prophet, Zzabur the Wizard, Horal the
>Warrior, Talar the Ruler, etc. [probably including Ehilm the Sun,
>Humct Deathlord or Worlath the Wind] were immortal beings of equal
>power and footing.
It seems to me that the legends of the False Gods are later accretions for the original form of Ehilm for example (and the one promulgated by the God Learners) is simply the Sun Disk.
>Zzabur of Brithos claims to still belong to this stage. His performance
>during I Fought We Won on equal footing with Kyger Litor and other
>deities seems to support this claim
Written from the perspective of an Orlanthi/God Learner. I don't think Zzabur would acknowlege Kyger Litor (or High King Elf) as being a immortal of equivalent status to himself. Rather he would treat it as an impersonal force or whatnot.
>[although his performance after Dawn during the Hrestol crisis doesn't
>(not until his abdication, that is)].
I treat the Book of Kings as being a Seshnegi 'Augustan History'. To explain, the Augustan History is a collection of biographies about the Roman Emperors after Domitian which contains much valuable detail (it is the only literary source that mentions that Hadrian built the Wall) for the period and is purportedly written by six historians in the reigns of Diocletian to Constantine.
It is however a forgery. It was actually written by a single unknown historian in the reign of Thesodosius the Great nearly a century later. In addition to the large amounts of valuable material (such as paraphrases of the works of earlier historians whose work as not survived), he got bored and started inserting fake names and bullshit stories.
So while the events therein the book of kings happened, we must be careful not to assume they happened exactly as written.
>> No. The Higher Levels of a Materialistic perspective are observable
>> in the Material World. The Mystic's Higher Levels are not because he
>> seeks them outside the Observable Cosmos.
>You put this as an objective truth. I wonder what the Outer Atomic
>Explorers would have said to this theory (not necessarily Jim Chapin's
>astronauts, but the theorists).
The OAE explored in the Dark Between the Stars which is Observable. This is by no means the same thing as the Void of the Kralori Mystics.
>> Solace* being a product of Materialistic Philosophy is not a
>> transcendant state but within the Cosmos.
>As materialists, the Malkioni may be aware that their observations may
>be limited, but "within the Cosmos" or without seems a question of how
>you define the Cosmos.
That which is observable by material senses is within the Cosmos. That which is not observable by material senses is outside the Cosmos. I've already quoted the statement from Enclosure to this effect.
>It may well be possible for a knowledgeable
>Malkioni to heroquest to the city of Malkonwal, but will it be perfect
>Malkonwal within Solace, or will it be Malkonwal before its transition
>(Lunars would call this temportation, I believe)?
It would be the eternal and unchanging Malkonwal and within the Cosmos. The Lunar temportation is not the same means of Heroquesting that the Malkioni use (cf Greg's Q&A: Sheng Seleris in Hell which points out that different philosophies have different methods of heroquesting).
>> The Malkioni do know of States of Existance outside the
>> Cosmos but equate it with the number zero and thus 'prove' to their
>> satisfaction that it cannot be reached by mortals.
>Can it be reached by Immortals (in Malkioni opinion)?
No. Immortals being within the Cosmos cannot percieve anything without the Cosmos from a Materialistic Perspective. IMO most Malkioni wizards would believe that since they do not embrace the world of mortality either, they are less capable of percieving the cosmos than we are.
>I agree. I need to get back to the definition of spirit world, though:
>in terms of the cosmology in RQ3 products (IIRC Genertela: Glorantha
>Book), does this include all the Upper, Lower, Outer World and the
>spirit plane? All the Other Side?
A good rule of the thumb would be to substitute 'Higher Levels of Existance' for 'Other Side'. The Outer Worlds are part of the material world but the HLoE lie closer there. I'm not so sure about the spirit plane. As Enclosure #1 makes a distinction between matter and energy, I'm inclined to believe that the spirit world of RQIII is the 'energy' portion of the material world.
As for the Upper and Lower World, two possibilities arise. The first would be to state that the Upper World is the next level up from the Material World (ie the World of Immortals) and the Lower World is the World of Chaos. The other possibility is to state that both the Upper and Lower Worlds are part of the Material World. Both theories would work and so I imagine there are disputes about this in glorantha.
>> Most Malkioni aim merely to purify the mind to some
>> extent with the result that their mind survives the mortal death
>> of the body and the dissolution of the spirit.
>Their "mind", or their "soul", or whatever: Is this sort of a "distilled
>self" they aim to preserve? Do the Brithini have a notion on the nature
>of this phenomenon?
It's not so much a distilled self, but a higher harmonic vibration. The Brithini are unable to observe it because their secrets of immortality blind them to the existance of the phenomenon.
>> Otherwise Zzabur would be a Saint which is
>> denied by the Malkioni in GoG (and I don't think they are
>> playing silly definition games either).
>Zzabur is recognized as a quasi-"theist divine" immortal, it appears.
>Obviously this is not what orthodox Malkioni think of saints.
>On the other hand, there seems to be nothing to prevent these immortal
>beings from becoming saints. Malkion did, and various henotheist sects
>have made their theist deities saints rather than false gods.
Malkion became mortal before he became a Saint which I think was a key step in doing so. As the Henotheist Saints, I think they have idealized their own gods.
>How about the minor members of Malkion's offspring? Could we expect
>Yingar the Messenger (a grandson of Malkion IIRC) to be a saint?
Sandy's sorcery writeup does have Yingar as a Saint (although the myth is incorrect as Sandy was apparently unaware of the genealogical connection at the time) and I do believe that he is one. We don't know the exact details of his lifestory but his place of residence seems to indicate that the Upper World is a Higher Level of Existance (ie Theory #1 above).
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #140
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