I am not clear why Tradetalk has to be considered magical just because it
is created by a god. All, or most, of the languages should be considered
created by gods since their roots are in the godtime, but they are not
considered magical. The real magic of Tradetalk is that it is designed to
be a simple-to-learn communication method for presenting basic concepts
and making deals. It would have a reduced vocabulary, easy sentence
structure, and words that can be recognizably pronounced by most sentient
species. It should be great for negotiating a contract and lousy for
describing abstract mythic or magical concepts.
> ------------------------------
> Bob Stancliff:
> >Old Pavic
> >should almost certainly be at the bottom of the list since nomads are
> >usually in and around Pavis, and Old Pavic is a dead language.
>
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> RQ2 (p103) calls it "nearly dead" but spoken by the native humans of
> Pavis. It is also spoken in the religious ceremonies of Adari, but
> not spoken by the populace there.
> As for an RQ3 reference, Old Pavic is mentioned in the Glorantha
> Book (p33) as being "a Theyalan tongue found near Kethaela". Hence
> rumours of Old Pavic's death are slightly exaggerated.
I am not surprised that it is spoken in religious ceremonies. Latin has been spoken for several hundred years in churches since it 'died', but few argue that it is not 'dead'. I wasn't aware of the RQ2 reference that any people used it for daily living. It may only be a play -toy of the Old Pavis nobles, or a portion of it might have survived in common usage in the Rubble, but reduced from it's greatness by the centuries of hardship. It is certain to be studied by the priests and nobles, with strong parallels to Latin, but look at how the commoners' Latin drifted into the 'romance' languages in, roughly, 700 years. (I choose as my estimate the period from 500AD to 1200AD, your figures may vary 8>)... ).
> From: "Jane Williams" <jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk>
> Compare American and Australian English (both of which have had
> much more time to drift) to the real thing, and I think you'd agree that
> the common language of Pavis is Sartarite with an accent.
I feel that you oversimplify if you imply that American and Australian are 'British with an accent'. The local vocabularies are different enough to be full dialects, and not just pronunciation changes.
Pavic should probably have many words that are different from Sartarite, even though that is the parent language. I concede that there has not been as many years for changes in the Sartarite of New Pavis to occur, but the people have to work closely with nomads, Rubble citizens, trolls, and Yelmalions, so it should change faster than might be normal.
Consider that, due to the nature of land ownership in Pavis, few of the newer Sartarite immigrants would stay in the city unless they have an appropriate trade and can afford to join one of the guilds. The vast majority would move into Scrithia and join a clan. Pavic might not be the Sartarite of Dorasor (sp?), as you express, with only a few generations of change, but the Pavic of the Rubble with the hundreds of years it has been isolated. New Pavis was built by Sartarites, but it had many Rubble settlers as well who would move out of the great walls for various reasons and bring Pavic with them. I expect that Pete will see if the references express a distinction.
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> I really don't think we need to bother about when semantic drift
> spawns a new language. Just impose a penalty on reading old pavic
> documents written during the Second Age rather than add a new
> language for little gain.
Semantic drift doesn't have to spawn a new language to hinder communication. I feel that Pavic is to Sartarite or Old Pavic as American is to British, Australian, or Middle English... usually understandable, but with many altered words, new words, lost words, slang, and outside influences (Have you noticed that it is a little hard to read Shakespeare or Chaucer these days?). A conversion of 1/2 might be a little strong, but is reasonable in game terms. The simple words are relatively untouched, and the sentence structure is probably the same, so someone reasonably trained in his own language will be able to communicate at a basic or median level with the other groups. Remember that most of us are well above 75% (in game terms) with the English language so we understand many of the dialect differences.
When Australians or Americans live in Britain, they start to pick up the local dialect and add several new words and phrases to their vocabulary. They are increasing their basic skill at British (in game terms), and some gamers would mark a difference like this on their sheet and others would ignore it.
I am surprised that you would say not to add a new language for Old Pavic; the language difference already exists in the game (Old Pavic IS a listed language in the reference books), but it is up to the players to determine whether their exposure will justify adding the additional skill to their lists. I have had characters want to add Waha Knot reading, Agimori Hunter Sign, and Spirit Speech just because they ran across them in various module references, and these can certainly be considered to provide little gain, but possibly enough to be justified in their character concept.
> >In RQ1 & 2 it was the human learnable form of the
> >Dragonnewt and Wyrm language(s). By RQ3 Greg had decided that [Auld
> >Wyrmish] could not be written since most of it was like a sign language
> >with sounds most humans couldn't make, so Auld Wyrmish became a spoken
> >only language.
> Although the Introduction to Glorantha book implies this, what Greg
> actually meant (Glorantha Book p35) was that no humans could actually
> attain a skill of any higher than 25% in the _spoken_ language (Elder
> Secrets revealed that newtlings can go up to 50%) *but* there is no
> restriction on the written language which was invented by "clever
> humans" during the days of the EWF. It is still popular today among
> "pedants"
I guess that I inferred the implication... I didn't think there was a
written form anymore. Your characters can still presumably undergo the
operation so that you could get better, but it is a little disconcerting
to others. With the Hero Wars immanent, many things become possible
again.
Bob S
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #125
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