Pavis' main reason for going to Robcradle was to get revenge for his family which had been killed in the sack of Adari, a satellite town of the EWF totally innocent of what had happened in Robcradle, but sacked after the destruction of Robcradle nonetheless. Pavis wanted to get even with those responsible, both the Praxians and the giants.
I don't really think that Pavis was very religious, not like e.g. Monrogh almost 7 centuries later. He seems to have been a Theyalan similar to the inhabitants of Dorastor, vaguely Orlanthi, somewhat urbanized, eager for new magics taught e.g. by the Mostali.
After he had driven Praxians and giants away, and had made peace with the Praxians using his aldryami healing, he established a community rich in magics (as the ongoing plundering of the ruins clearly shows). The magics seem to be of a similar style as those found by the Quivini settlers amid the rubble of the Dragonkill (mentioned as artefacts in Argrath's Magical Union, and a not too rare event in playing King of Dragon Pass). (The ruins in Dragon Pass still have similar opportunities, and magical as well as monstrous dangers of their own.)
> Joerg:
>> Most of the interior of Pavis was built by humans, not by dwarfs. Pavis >> needed lots of specialized craftspeople to keep his city alive, pretty >> much like Sartar did when he set up Wilmskirk and later towns. I don't >> see nomads adapting to settled life and specialized craft this quickly, >> and there is no other sensible source of skilled work nearby except the >> EWF.
> Again, I disagee that the only sensible source of urban craftsmen is
> the EWF. The Port of Sog is nearer, not yet ruined, and presumably
> contained numerous Jrusteli craftspeople.
Both distance and travel time is greater, also to Feroda. Most of all, consider the numbers available: Dragon Pass had a population of almost two million (judging from the population density of Tarsh and extrapolating on the rest of the land, including the Marzeel/Creekstream River Valley), whereas Feroda and Robcradle had maybe 5,000 inhabitants, including any hypothetical deported Ralians there.
> Pavis took 20 years to finish his part of the city
> (pretty slow if he only did the Real City, which is quite a small area).
Whoever settled in his city, the disruption caused by Thog will have made a new start. Joraz Kyrem returned from Dragon Pass leading an army including Sun Domers, but likely volunteers from the pass as well. By this time, Feroda and Sog seem to have lost their attraction, and the cities in Kethaela were more important to the Jrusteli.
> Joerg:
>> There is >> evidence for lots of sedentary people in Pavis, though, and that means >> either Zola Fel fisherfolk or EWF-Orlanthi (or exiles, Pavis is far >> enough from the core of the Empire to serve as dump for dissidents).
> I agree that only the less conservative Pure Horse (ie those radical
> enough to start breeding zebras) would remain in the city. A bunch of
> zebra riders who are willing to change their ways, following Joraz
> Kyrem's example.
Remaining more or less a riding people, traders, mercenaries, and messengers. Probably the Grazer tribes depending on Vendref thralls would be a good parallel.
>>> They would have had at least as much >>> contact to Praxians as to Pure Horse horse speakers (without anybody >>> suggesting they started speaking Praxian), but even more daily contact >>> with both Pavisite and EWF-side Theyalans.
> Pavic citizens would have hated and feared the Praxians (IMO) and had as
> little as possible to do with them.
The Zebra tribe was famous for serving as intermediaries between rival Praxians. This seems to imply a good deal of contact with and even more talking to the "other" Praxians. The Zebras served as go-between to the Praxians for the necessary meat imports. I suspect Old Pavis used to have an industry of curing hides and working in horn to supplement transit trade. (These industries might have been zebra rider-owned...)
> As I argued before, contact with the EWF would have been highly
> influenced by Auld Wyrmish, the language of the Wyrms' Mind Collective.
And the prevalent Theyalan language there. The city of Pavis lived from its trade between nomads, the sea, and Dragon Pass. After the destruction of the Zistorite cities in Kethaela (907-916) Pavis was one of the few places where Jrusteli and EWF traders still could meet. Until the Closing...
Keith:
>>> I would expect more Ralians (shipped overseas by the
>>> Godlearners in 825),
Me:
>> Why Ralians?
> Because rebellious Ralian rabble (sounds like the Life of Brian) were
> savagely repressed in 825 by Godlearner Monks and shipped overseas.
To Umathela, where we have evidence of huge numbers of Wareran immigrants, and quite a lot of large cities built within two centuries. We know that the settlers there were (or became) not orthodox Malkioni, but rather a blend of Malkionism and Theyalan cults which we know from Safelster (and Slontos) as well.
> Pavis would have been looking for labour around this time, hence Ralian
> slaves sold by Middle Sea Empire slave traders.
In that case I would expect a strong tradition of slavery in Pavis, which I cannot really discern. I also doubt that slave trading was strong in the Middle Sea Empire. Why bother with human slaves when you can have the service of otherworldly beings?
>> Heortlings are the closest source for civilized settlers able to do >> their farming, gardening, and providing the crafts necessary to keep a >> city alive. I have great difficulty to imagine a nomad turn mason.>>
> Remember that they have 20 years to do it, a Master of Stone to teach
> them and that nomads aren't any less intelligent than anyone else.
But nomads are less inclined to quarry and hew stones than sedentary people. Especially when zebra breeding and trading as well as trade with the EWF and the nomads were available as an alternative.
>> A new city always provides new opportunities, and will attract >> craftspeople and farmers from some distance, but rarely from overseas. >> This leaves little choice but Heortlings.
> So America and Australia, both being considerably overseas, didn't
> attract any settlers?
Yes. America at first attracted religious fanatics strong in their creed and persecuted for it (in New England, besides hardy fur traders further north), and ruthless mercenaries (in the Spanish colonies, along with strong religious moments as well). The climatically nicer West Indies (compare Umathela) were a lot more attractive during that period...
> Australia reminds me that most early British settlers were not farmers
> but often came from a large industrial city (London) but managed to
> survive.
It's not that most of them came voluntarily...
I think the settlement of the Baltic Sea region under the guidance of the Hanseatic League and the Teutonic Knights makes a better comparison. Pavis is somewhat similar to Nowgorod in this regard.
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