Oliver D. Bernuetz
>(And I'm sticking with Mralota
>so what if it's the Orlanthi swine goddess' name too).
Entra sounds very much like derived from Entruli, i.e. the same source as Mralota. It is supposed to be an Orlanthi swine goddess, and the "Orlanthi" who had swine were the Entruli tribes (including the Aramites of the Ivory Plinth, a very likely source for Balazar's theft).
Wesley Quadros
>Has anybody thought of what the meaning is of all those happy faces on
>Yelm's toga (as seen on the cover of FS and on the God's Wall)?
Signifies that it has been made by Dendara, whose (other) rune this is. "Look here, he's mine!"
TERRA INCOGNITA
>2:Joastland kingdom
Correct spelling: Jorstland (Ralios)
There was also a Janubian kingdom which took the Arrolian refugees from the Lunar Empire.
4: Fresh Water sea Unions
>Bindle has long tradition to this inner sea severed from outer great water
>body. They have independent power even surrounded by great nations and
>monopolized trade
>this lake. Why they can do this?
Because they know the magics to placate the blue people below the water.
5: Third eye blue Cult
>Conflict with Nidan Decamony idea can be converted into schism of Alchemist
>Sect:
>What secret do they steal from Mostali?
Iron.
>Metal is bone of elemental deities,
except iron, which might be the bones of Iron Mostali, or produced otherwise.
Tharkantus:
This is the name of the 2nd Age Sun Dome God everybody knows as Yelmalio since Monrogh's revelations and retroquests. It might appear in a few inscriptions in Balazar (assuming he had any literate companions), and perhaps on the odd ruin from 2nd Age Sun Dome activities prior to the EWF.
During the EWF, and especially when Arinsor Clearmind entered Prax from Dragon Pass, the cult would have used a draconic kenning of the Sun Dome. Arinsor himself clearly was using EWF-era methods of longevity. He still died before the draconic knowledge wipe-out of 1042.
Mikael:
>Yelmalio was introduced to Far Point by the Lunars in the latter half
>of the 16th century in an attempt to 'divide and conquer':
I wonder how they managed, after all the Far Point tribes were enemies of Phargentes throughout this period, and then they joined Terasarin's princedom.
Obviously, the Yelmalio missionaries must have kept their Lunar backers very secret. I think that they were former Elmali from within Lunar Tarsh who visited the Far Point during trade missions and showed off their splendid, probably Dara Happan-manufactured (and Lunar-sponsored) gilded armour, and spoke of the splendid golden-domed god-houses of theirs. They might have mentioned that Tarkalor of Sartar helped Monrogh find his vision, appearing as not-so Phargentes-friendly subjects of Tarsh. Phargentes might even have sponsored the aquisition of solar treasures in Dara Happa (in exchange for Tarshite grain) and making these gifts to clans willing to join Yelmalio, through his own Yelmalians, if he did indeed pursue the introduction of Yelmalio as an insidious policy to break the united front of the Far Pointers with the Bagnot (and not-yet-Bush Range) Exiles.
>I think the Canon of seeing Far Point as particularly Yelmalo-ist
>stems from the freeform Home of the Bold, where Harvar is said to
>worship Yelmalio. Well, in the Sartar Book draft for HW he worships
>the Bigger Wind. It seems like he is trying to pull a Lokamayadon.
IIRC, the tribal maps in Questlines 1 are based on an old map which also names the tribes' preferred deity and/or weapon of choice, which gives some Yelmalian presence there.
Plus, at certain times Greg told people that some of the Tarshite tribes in Sartar did worship Yelmalio. I got a "definitely Yelmalio" for the Dinacoli when I wrote a scenario set in the dragonewt wildlands a couple of years ago (published in Free INT, in German language).
John:
>Can anyone suggest for me the typical composition of a Yelmalian/Solar clan
>or tribal ring in the Far Place or eastern Tarsh c.1623?
The chieftain ought to be a ranking Yelmalian - if available, a Light Son. Ditto for the champion, if that's a different person. However, even if Light Sons are available it is not a necessity for them to lead the clan...
>Would places be granted to representatives of gods, as the Lightbringer
>rings do? [...] Are there alternative, non-deity models for solar
>clan and tribal governance that would operate in rural areas?
IMO this might be replaced by a concept of nobility of households, whose representatives would make up the clan council.
>What role (formal or informal) would the Womens Circle (or its Solar
>counterpart) play?
They would be a parallel government, exacting their influence on the various household heads on the tribal council rather than on the chieftain directly. This means they will suffer from some male impulsive decisions, but their men will get hot ears afterwards, and be more careful next time around.
I guess that there would be some female hierarchy with decisive authority over the wives of the council members (and/or consisting of them).
>What might be held in common with the Sun County descriptions, and
>what would be different?
I don't expect too much discipline in any non-Templar Yelmalio group of men - - Orlanthi "no one can make you do anything" would be weakened, but not extinct.
I see tribal Yelmalians as riders and horse archers rather than as phalangists. They might be more inclined to form a shield wall than Orlanthi clansmen, but there has to be someone who uses all the horse-related gifts of Yelmalio. IMG the Dinacoli are Yelmalian cattle herders spending much of their time on horseback. They do grow barley and oats, the latter for their horse breeding.
Horse-breeding seems to be a fairly prominent pasttime with the Tarshite tribes. The fourth king of the Twin dynasty stole a Goldeneye for breeding. Fazzur appears with a mounted force in 1613. The Bush Rangers in the DP boardgame are mounted skirmishers. Only the clans in the most broken territory (including both the Aldachuri and the Wintertop tribes) would be less natural horsemen.
"Never let a horse suffer needlessly" might still mean that they rode to battle, but not during battle, in classical Orlanthi style. Although riding from battle with a parting shot (Kuschile Archery) seems to have been an option.
KoS seems to suggest use of a Lod-plow in Yelmalio-convert clans (Making Gods). I don't know whether this makes Barntar obsolete, or just his type of light plow.
Some elf-friend aspect might be significant in agriculture.
Practically, everything about the cult of Yelmalio which makes little sense for Praxian Sun County which cannot be blamed on Teshnan influences should be found somewhere among the tribal Yelmalians. "Wear no armour on ..." makes a lot more sense for barbarian tribesmen with little tradition of fully-armoured hoplites but lots of tradition of champions and individual fighters, and, most of all, no coherent tradition of uniform armour. (Access to this armour might actually be easier for the tribal Yelmalians than for the Praxian Sun Domers, but the Praxians may well have suits of armour (parts of) which have been in use since Arinsor Clearmind claimed the land. The tribal Yelmalians will lack that tradition. The Sun Domers of Sun Dome County - on former Kitori lands - would have had to equip themselves with new armour. One possible source might be the short period of victorious Sartar under Prince Tarkalor.)
>How Pro-Lunar would Far Point Yelmalians be, and
>would this be reflected in their tribal bodies?
I suppose they chose to be Yelmalian to avoid being Lunars themselves, which indicates some reservations against full Lunarisation. They are probably willing to accept the benefits of the empire, and loathe to accept the less savoury aspects.
They still may have strong reservations against the Lunarized Illaro Dynasty, and look out for allies within the Empire to keep their lands separate from the Kingdom of Tarsh, notably within the Provincial Government.
>An Orlanthi ring is simply
>unsustainable in present political circumstances.
Why? An Orlanthi ring with Yelmalians and other non-Orlanth, acceptable cultists will do as fine as any Lodrilite patriarchy or solarite aristocracy on clan level. Who would care outside the clan?
More importantly: why anger the clan's ancestors along with the clan's main deity (provided that is Orlanth, who is admittedly weakened somewhat since Whitewall)? Clan magic cannot be at its best, but to overturn these traditions might make it even worse. (I don't think all Aldachuri clans have "novelty" as one of their virtues...)
>The situation is in some ways similar to what happens when Orlanthi rulers
>(and rings) convert to the Lunar Way.
IMO this won't remove the old structures, not at once. Change them, yes, but look what Sartar did, too.
First of all, keep in mind that it's the Provincial Lunar Way, i.e. less than half-understood Lunar elements in a predominantly hill-barbarian culture. Neither the ancestors nor their ways of leading one's life will change a lot, at least not in a short time. There is no Lunar society model which can replace all the customs which serve the hill-barbarians' needs. Lunar culture appears to be urban, and most hill-barbarians aren't.
In Sylila, Hwarin Dalthippa entered the existing structure and worked within it, maybe enlarging it. Likewise did HonEel with Illaro dynasty Tarsh. Whatever changes they wrought, they made within the existing society, not against it. The Far Point isn't Sartar, at least not the victim of Dara Happan revanchism against Rebellus Terminus or the stage of Rufelza's final victory over Orlanth.
I wonder whether there is a cult of Orogeria and Odayla, with Orogeria a cognate of the Lady of the Wild. Would this fit the Bluefoot Tovtaros?
>Clan
>bloodlines are after all the basic economic units, the units of production,
>and in a gifting economy like the Far Place you can only tinker so much
>with basic economic realities without bringing the entire stead/clan
>crashing down.
Very true. Whatever changes you bring with the conversion, there are a few glaring ones (like that new 7Moms temple the ancestors may or may not be angry about) and a whole lot of subtle, slow trends.
Make the chieftain a Lunar citizen (and tax him for the privilege). Involve him in the Lunar-commanded militia you happen to gather for maneuvers away from hilltops on Orlanthi festivals. Give gifts, offer priestess-wives, the whole Bilini canon.
>So what are the
>dynamics of religious changeover? I'm willing to assume that a sizable
>minority will choose, as the Hawaians so aptly put it, "the god for the day
>when the god is needed". But how would a changeover take place?
Step one: the chieftain and/or significant ring members let themselves be persuaded to make the changeover for their own persons. A Lunar priest (of low rank but sufficient magical ability) will be invited into the clan tula to build a shrine where this conversion can be performed. (In case of an Elmal-Yelmalio switch, this might even be a re-educated clan god-talker. An Orlanth-Yelmalio switch ought to start with "Yelmalio Guards the Stead".)
Cooperative clan god-talkers will assist in the consecration, and invite the clan ancestors to join this acceptance. (IMO the most hairy bit, worse than having the Lunars fend off the worst of the windfists and impests.)
Step two: key clan leaders make their conversion, are gifted richly by their new cult, and are kept on sacred ground for a good while (keeping off the first Retributions). Depending on the nature of the conversion, they might participate in a temple quest wherein they face the spirits of retribution with the magical aid of the converting priests.
Step three: the converted clan leaders encourage household members of theirs to follow through this procedure, redistributing some of their conversion gifts, gaining status thereof. (Cult sponsoring goes only that far...)
Step four: members of other households are supported if they want to make the conversion.
During this process, it is fairly important that the convertees remain in their ring positions. Their magical and mundane abilities still ought to be beneficial to the clan, ideally at least as good as before. Strong magical support from the new cult should provide this. (In KoDP terms, cult luck will be transferred to the convertees' clan.)
Key clan ceremonies will have to be altered to fit to the new cult structure. Is the Lightbringers Quest the only possible Sacred Time quest, or do the solar clans have a comparable surface quest? Will it have to be I Fought We Won, or are both Lunars and Yelmalians ignorant of this mystery and unable to survive it? (The convertees will have undergone it as part of their initiations, but can they still perform it?) Will Heort's Lawstaff quest still be appropriate, or is there some half forgotten Vingkotling "keep/set the world right" quest which might be reactivated?
I don't think that "let's use the Ernaldan rites" can be the answer, because IMO both the Ernaldan and the Orlanth rites are performed during Sacred Time. Don't nail me down which Ernaldan rites, though - given that it is early springtime, I suppose that the Voria festival is nothing but the public consumption of the secret rites performed the two weeks earlier. It is possible that an "Ernalda saves the world by putting it to sleep" rite intersects with the LBQ at the Maggotliege stage, and that a replacement has to be made. HonEel found a way to Maggotliege, and returned together with the emperor, bringing back the crops (the earth) as well. Perhaps this might serve in the Lunar conversion, although I'd be interested what Hwarin inserted. For the Solar quest to the Underworld, there might be Lightfore, or the emperor's self-resurrection if that can be put into Yelmalian context.
Alex:
>Where a Count is replacing a tribal king, some of the work is
>already done for him, in terms of the trappings of one-person rule,
>as compared to the clan level.
I thought that a Count compares to a Prince (e.g. of the Aldachuri) rather than a mere tribal king. Also in office - he _is_ the warleader of the county. I don't think he necessarily has to take the fertility role in the mysteries. At least these may be well separated from his sovereignty reinforcing rites.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #339
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