> >It seems mildly ironic that Kralorela is positively crawling with
> >dragons, and you seem to think their religion has nothing much to do
> >with 'dragons',
> Dragon Pass is positively crawling with dragons, and their religion
> is currently fairly hostile to them. The only dragon we really now about
> seriously interacting with the natives is Thrunhin Da, whose contribution
> to Kralori religion is the rather undraconic sounding cult of the Orca.
Dragon Pass is considerly _less_ crawling with Dragons, in my belief, and only 'recently', in historical terms. And where was it these 'blow-ins' came from? And as you say, the local religion is broadly neutral or negative about them, and for that reason isn't a good comparison with kralori religion, which is quite the reverse in that respect.
In Kralorela, the dragons are meditated upon, hob-nobbed with, worshipped (despite the total futility of worshipping them, mind), and basically 'positively interacted with' in any way we can imagine, and doubtless a few ways the natives have thought of that neither you nor I have, yet. If they could be any more draconic in their religious practice, I do not think it is through the want of trying.
> And the Darudans mainly revere the sort of 'dragon' that looks less
> like a dragon and more like a wacky mystic guy, and doesn't do anything
> particularly draconic.
Some dragons are so big, they're hard for the casual observers to see. It would be wrong to conclude that the little dragons, and those associated with them, are 'more draconic' than these big ones. If you're going to take the dragonewts as a Gold Standard for draconicness I can see why you might find the Kralori deficient in certain respects, but I think that'd be an Error.
> Now, I grant you, they spend a lot of time thinking about draconic
> things - but really, what is the difference between Darudism, and Vithelan
> mysticism with a strong draconic motif?
Vithelan mysticism is itself such a thoroughly mixed bag that to answer this question in any osrt of comprehensive detail would require not just one email, but about two trade-paperback game supplements. (Here's hoping.)
> Orthodox mystics aim to become enlightened beings through various methods but
> refrain from manifesting overt powers because to do
> so will inhibit their spiritual advancement. This path is
> littered with failures that have
> caused much damage. Yet the mystics are not adverse to
> using these failures for their own ends.
I don't think that's true. But I'm not the Orthodox mysticism expert, so It's Not Rightly My Place To Say, Zur. But I think OM relies on a far more complete denial of the manifest world than this implies. To return to my earlier proferred comparison: NiangMao and his followers regard the world as a tragic delusion, a veritable spiritual train-wreck. You can only really feel sorry for your fellow victims, and then make it go away entirely. Darudans regard the world as the _means_ of gaining the correct spiritual state, not an obstacle thereto. Mundanely-perceived 'reality' is not mere illusion, it's a metaphor for the Real World, if seen correctly.
> Perhaps what I am saying is perhaps Darudists would be a bit more
> distinct if they actually had some dragon related abilities that anyone was
> allowed to use ever.... if the Five Dragon Warriors were Darudists not
> POIM, we could point and say
I don't think the Five Dragon Warriors are PoIM; what leads you to that conclusion? Martial artists are (in a greater or lesser sense) part of the authenic Darudan tradition, which is why the 'hsunchen animist' analysis vexes me more than somewhat. Even the hoi polloi who do nothing more than the elementary exercise the mandarins prescribe in revering the Emperor and the draconic multitudes, are, in a sense, part of this tradition too.
If a little levity (and boy, do I mean _little_) isn't out of place here, I might recall the old saw: A gentleman is a chap who can play the accordion -- but does not. Similarly, anything other than a grossly incompetent Exarch[*] _would_ be able to do some pretty impressive draconic manifestation type stuff; but doing so would not just screw around with his own personal mystical state, it would also completely bullocks up the restrcitions he's voluntarily accepted in order to fit into the well-ordered scheme for running the empire correctly. But if push really came to shove...
[*] And I don't want to preclude the possibility of a specularly hide-bound, necrotically corrupt Empire, if that suits people's gaming purposes of notions of MGF.
> Or at least, some version of Darudism (and I am quite willing to
> entertain all sorts of interpretations) that differs in an interesting and
> obvious way from orthodox mysticism other than by not using draconic magic
> (as opposed to not using other magic).
I'm willing to entertain many, many different sorts also, and I'm sure the Kralori are too, if only because You just can't get good staff these days in the Exarchate of Darudic Purity, or whatever their euphemism for mystic thought police/inquisition is. But I don't want to end up re-inventing the PoIM wheel, since we already have one of those, whatever the disapprobrium heaped on it.
> >while you're simultaneously convinced that the city-
> >dwelling, intensively agrarian, hsunchen-hating kralori are really
> >harbouring a hotbed of neo-hsunchenism, Dave.
> Nah, that would be a misrepresentation
Misrepresentation of what? Not, I don't think of the Kralori; if it's an inaccurate precis of your views on martial arts and what-not I'm happy to be corrected, but that seemed to me to be the very thing we were arguing about, just a little while ago.
> But I think that the Hsunchen tribes were sometimes conquered and
> assimilated, rather than exterminated, and culturally, assimilation works
> both ways to some extent. But thats only some parts - most of the empire
> has only stories of hsunchen, its just a few people in the outer provinces
> that have hsunchenish folk customs.
Most of the provinces are 'outer', in that they border the ShanShan's, so that's not a huge caveat. Yes, assimilation works both ways, but being a Kralori and being a Hsunchen are fundamentally incompatible lifestyles. Sure, there may be remants of hsunchen magic among the odd mountain village, but all in all, the actual hsunchen are going to be a whole lot better at it than those that have essentially abandonned every precept of hsunchen life.
Cheers,
Alex.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #346
Powered by hypermail