Alex:
>Unless the Proxiness is sufficiently minor, or the circumstances so
>particular, that the obviousness of the transposition isn't crucial,
>perhaps.
Yes, in many cases he simply needs to wear scarlet and a nice set of silvery armour and wave a lot. I suspect the Arena Proxy is an expert at this. He also has the task of being killed by the mob when the show is poor, so that the Rufelzan mob can impart to the Emperor their displeasure. The Emperor, the mob and the Proxy all understand their roles in this.
> Alex puts forward an idea I'm all in favour of. If it gets assailed by an
> Issaries "hit-squad" then I won't be in it. It should be perfectly
possible
> for the players to see and experience the Proxy situation, both the Emperor
> look-alikes _and_ the Proxies of power.
>A most enlightened position. Immediately I suspect that wasn't posted
>by the Real Martin, but the Reasonableness Proxy. ;-)
<muffled thumps as nice pansy proxy is deposed and beaten> Aha! I'm back now, and everything you just said was bollocks!
> Yep, that is "not on", as you say. An ordinary person cannot become the
> Emperor as the Emperor is an entity in his own right, even after death.
>Sounds like one of these incredibly hard object identity (or if you
>prefer, pointer equality) tests... The important point is surely that
>while it may be clear (to at least some of the people, some of the
>time) who's actualkly emperor, and more especially, who is in the
>process of 'becoming' (i.e., being recognised as truly being) the
>Emperor -- but that none of the 'possibilities' could reasonably be
>described as 'ordinary'.
Yep, it leaves it open for all sorts of problems and possibilities. Only the Egi and the Emperor know who is the real Emperor initially, then he proves it to others over time and gains support. Naturally some don't like this and sometimes the Emperor is away a LONG time and this causes other problems. In addition the new Emperor might well have a different agenda and might kill off people he doesn't like. This is why the Emperors death is usually considered chaos incarnate. Often honest nobles wait anxiously to determine who the real Emperor is, because if they are hasty, they could give allegiance to the wrong fellow and then be executed for treason!
> Your Glorantha may vary but its got nothing to do with cutting out
> interesting ideas.
>Your saying that interesting ideas aren't going to be cut out, then,
>or just that if that happens it was collateral damage, not something
>specifically on the target list?
Well stuff is bound to fall by the wayside and there are many ways to skin a cat, but no specific ideas are being targeted for termination. Rather things change as part of the creation process.
>Which is as far from a situation that necessitates a simple answer,
>even at Level Four, as to who the heck he is in terms of a given sets
>of 'physiques' as I could imagine, off the top of my head. You may
>it sound as if there's an invisible silver sign over his head at
>all times saying 'this is the real emperor', so any ambiguity as to who
>he is at any given moment is best accounted for by supposign sufficiently
>naive Gloranthans, unable to discern such.
The true Emperor has backing and abilities the others don't. He is the Red Emperor and they aren't. So yes, there is a sign over his head in some respects, but as you point out, hardly anyone can see it until he proves it. This is why he proves himself on every return.
>It seems to me very likely
>that at times almost _no-one_ in the empire knows for certain who the
>real emperor is -- not even them-- eh, I mean, him.
He does. The Egi do and other entities in the Empire can determine this, but each insititution has tests to see his Emperorhood. The army does, the Buseri do etc etc. It's the accretion of these powers and followings that eventually leads to his full return.
> Nah, there is going to be confusion. but you don't need a stream of doubles
> for that. Simple ingorance and personal prejudices will work just fine.
> Most people have no clue as to the Emperors real appearance. Should
someone
> with a lot of power and a following say he's the Emperor and everyone knows
> the Emp died recently, then there are many, many reasons why large numbers
of
> people will believe him and obey his will. Of course this poses problems
for
> otherwise loyal citizens who join the Emperor against his evil proxies to
> find that their dude is the proxy after all...
>And to go somewhat further: it's at least possible for the Golden Proxy
>(say) to become a 'genuine' Emperor of Dara Happa (at least for starters),
>in such circumstances.
DEFINATELY!!! Absolutely, and for a Rinliddi to declare himself Aviator and a Carmanian to be Shah etc etc. This happens.
>(GRAY and tFS makes it clear how low a bar this
>is, after all...) Add in a spot of heroquesting, and a political faction
>that might very well be inclined to not much care about the rest of
>his imperial chores ("Dara Happa for the Dara Happans!") and I can see
>real scope for more thana momentary confusion as to who is the 'Real'
>Emperor.
Oh sure, yes from that perspective yes. Even, who is the real Shah etc. However, what we've been having the problem with is who is the real _Red_ Emperor. And I keep returning to the point - there is only ONE Red Emperor, he is a single entity and returns after his physical death when the Egi enact the rituals. Yet he is still the Red Emperor, not someone else given the title.
On the other hand there can be thousands of Emperors in the Empire. Sheng was Emperor of Peloria but he wasn't the Red Emperor. What I'm saying is should I move into your house, call myself Alex, wear your clothes and go do your job, I'd be be no more Alex Ferguson than anyone else. You are an individual and the Red Emperor is an individual. Of course someone could live in your house and do your job but they still wouldn't be _you_.
This is the point I think everyone seems to miss in what I'm saying about the Red Emperor. The reason he is not replaced by another person is simple - the Red Emperor is still THERE after being offed! Just not physically. To the Lunars this is no big deal because this kind of recylcing and rebirth is par for the course for them.
Martin Laurie
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